Reasons The VP Community Is Shrinking....

[TheMcD]

I think you missed my point, Bob. That is probably due to the fact that I wrote too much and missed the point myself.

What I was actually wanting to say, condensed into as little text as possible:

Look, I really love this BS just as much as you do. Seriously. I can't help but laugh every god damn time this comes up. But can't we at the very least find something new to BS about? I'd prefer a 50 page crap-flinging contest over the nudge in VP9 over this every day of the year.

And I can't stand how it all points towards the same direction. BSing might sometimes even help (just because fighting it out might even sometimes solve the problem), but BSing about the same god damn thing every god damn time gets old after a while. I mean, before we had guys like, what's his name, truthseekr or something like that. Kept stirring up political stuff. Kept shit interesting, at the very least.

Fuck, I'm typing too much again. Too long, didn't read version: Find something new to bash your heads about, it's getting fucking boring after a while. Heard enough about people and their egos, now it's time to discuss how to fix the nudge or something like that. Change of course before the horse is reduced to dust because of the beating.

The McD

P.S. 22 people reading this thread... hot topic!

P.P.S. It's 10 P.M. and I'm fucking tired. It's highly probable that I missed my actual point again. Replace my post with the picture of a dead horse getting beaten, that should be my actual message.

 

[shiva]

Actually, when the community was at its creative peak, the BS was flying from every direction, so those "why can't we all just get along posts" are missing the whole creative process of the community.

Look at Groni, he'd fit right in back in the old days....

Shiva made his bed and he doesn't like it.

Noah wants peace and harmony, but started off with a bang by trying to upstage VPF.com by creating a site with the same name.

The pinball community thrives on BS and only people full of BS stick around.

If you're really looking for cool games, the consoles nowadays are incredible....

I still think first timers have about a 1 in 5 chance of getting this stuff up and running.... We piss those people off before they even have a chance to get involved.

Oh yea, like Steely pointed out.... The VP9 nudging is a piece of crap.

Today is my 36th anniversary, so I obviously know how to get along.

I'd like to hear some more BS..... Next!

Okay then, I will bite. :)

Interesting comments about BS considering that you give out more BS than anyone else. Really a case of the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?

Congrats on 36 years, your wife must truly be a saint to put up with someone like you, your a lucky man.

 

[faralos]

Noah wants peace and harmony, but started off with a bang by trying to upstage VPF.com by creating a site with the same name.
i am not going here again, enough mud-slinging was/is done over this, but personally I think he is doing a great job.
And personally I don't make and post original pins with the hope of getting many downloads for them, I create them because I like to, so for me I don't care if 1500 or just 2 people download my pins. Sure it's nice to see alot of hits on it in a short time, but really who makes pins just for others? don't we all share the same love? To create pins WE love to play, and if I have many others who also like it well cool, but I don't hold my breath over every download hoping for just one more. Again this is just one person's opinion so don't shoot me for it!

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

bob with the nail on the head, as usual. hopefully that carried through into the bedroom to celebrate the 36th. :D

people don't like to talk to each other in this scene unless there's a pinball issue or unless there's a controversy, in which case they tend to lose their cool and / or lecture without listening. so it's good to see that tradition being carried on in this thread!

...

you regulars who are reading, you're a boring bunch of people; do you realise that? over the course of years i've started dozens of threads devoted to random, pleasant offtopic subjects, or participated in others, or seen others doing it without my participation, but the team spirit to participate in those threads has always been very low, despite the number of people who bother to read the threads.

even checking in to say "wow, that's pretty weird / interesting, but i know nothing about it" is always valuable, but people with their tendency to want to avoid spending effort / be in control / appear macho / avoid appearing foolish rarely are honest like that. instead, the offtopic interesting threads across this scene garner the sound of crickets. unless someone's being an outrageous asshole, because everyone loves reading those threads and offering their advice which everyone else instantly ignores.

but if you bother to wrap your mind around that concept for a minute, the tendency to ignore the supposedly offtopic threads becomes related to the tendency to reduce all pinball-related threads to a sense of production and not of challenging questions and offbeat creativity, some of which verge on the edge of the profane and uncontrollable but ultimately impart a crucial vibrancy that carries a project forward in unpredictable ways. and of course most of you will think i'm speaking in etruscan by saying that. (thank you, thank you)

but the fact that some guy shamelessly stole the VPF name and few care is not the problem-- there is precedent for this via machiavelli and 'benevolent dictatorship', and that's not necessarily a bad thing. sometimes the ends really do justify the means the same way that the pros outweigh the cons. the bigger problem is that the new VPF guy, despite being capable, intelligent and hardworking, has a fundamental inability to understand the nuances of these situations and the way that chaos can drive positive effects. he sees the situation in moreso christian terms, being good-hearted in his limited way, but wishing to swing a surgical knife between what he considers 'old and malevolent' versus 'ongoing and productive', and feels justified and energised in doing so.

despite shiva being a crotchety old gasbag as usual, you can still see the wannabe VPF guy failing to understand the history that shiva is still willing to impart that could have helped him create something sustainable... something which could have sublimated human nature towards productive ends.

instead, it's the same old "the lessons of the past don't matter here; we're here to advance the positive" attitude. which has always failed and always will fail. but enjoy the new VPF during that time, you people who follow the scene and contribute nothing. you are always the most predictable flock of hummingbirds and always will be.

 

[yogiholzer]

When I read the topic I hoped for anything more spectacular, but the thread became boring very soon, especially when introducing the horse.

It's natural, that interests on a software (game and game editor for simulation and emulation), that's available for 8(?) years now (with some updates and improvements and eventually also with some regression) can't/doesn't attract countless new people, when recreation is nearly utilised, even if there are many improvements imaginable, and when creativity is wanted/needed in combination with qualification on a difficult to manage area like pinball. I don't think anyone can expect increasing interests in future. Or do you still play Pong on regular basis? Tetris? We are veterans!

 

[shiva]

No worries now Noah, go back to your site when you get it up and running again. What you are doing is no different than what I was doing for 8 years, but, it's pretty apparent that your reasons for doing this are far different than mine. Since you have made your statement, even though some of it was very very wrong due to anger, still, it's enough for me to understand, and I respect your decision.

My offer still stands to others, if you need images that I have collected, just request here and only at PN. I have over 8 gigs of images just on my hard drive, 1.3 gigs of stripped playfield images (various quality/sizes and a lot would have to be stitched though) of 235 different tables. I'm sure people understand that to put up the entire image collection would take quite a long time, so I would prefer to upload by request.

If you have forgotten the URL, here it is of the existing images I have already uploaded.

http://www.esnips.com/user/shiva

Some of these are quite old though, and I may have newer and better quality now, but I can always redo them.

 

[bob]

despite shiva being a crotchety old gasbag

I have to correct you here.... shiva's a "lovable" crotchety old gasbag. murf:

I think you missed my point, Bob.

Impossible! It's that cone shaped thing sitting on your forehead!.

Look, I really love this BS just as much as you do. Seriously. I can't help but laugh every god damn time this comes up.

We are all laughing.... Just at different people.

but BSing about the same god damn thing every god damn time gets old after a while.

Then come up with some new material and share it with shiva as he hasn't posted anything new since 2001.

P.S. 22 people reading this thread... hot topic!

People love this crap! You give them enough of it and they'll start playing pinball again!

I wish I could write as eloquently as Nic.... He should get paid for this sh1t.

BTW, I went to a Chinese restaurant for dinner....

 

[Steely]

BTW, I went to a Chinese restaurant for dinner....

I hope you took your wife along.

 

[bob]

I hope you took your wife along.

She picked up the check!

 

[Leo_Wanker]

VP9 sux. (my opinion only so no crying)
I have just finished testing my HUGE collection of VP tables on VP9 and less than 15 % of them work properly. Most you can't play at all. The rest have many gfx glitches.
Not a smart move to release an update that renders the bulk of tables done useless.

BTW: Y'all suk ( especially Bob ) so shut up.

 

[TomcatLeader]

Every time I read threads like this, it is ALWAYS the same thing: name-calling, blame, flaming, past being brought up, egos bruised, feelings hurt. It really does get old. The same old thing getting re-hashed over and over and over. United we stand, divided we fall. Bottom line. As The McD said in an earlier post, we need unity, not division, if we are going to flourish and thrive as a community. We should be setting the example for the new people that come into the community, not being the exception to it. Harbored feelings only further destroy what many people have worked hard to build. Granted I'm not a scriptor or a builder of tables, I'm not that creative. But seeing what has taken place since I've been around the VP scene, its no wonder to me why the community has diminshed drastically in the last few years. Personal attacks, God complexes, squabbling and bickering, all of this is enough to drive anyone away. We have enough negativity in the world, why bring it here? It's the common bond, pinball, that brought us together. Why should we let things break that bond, especially when we call ourselves logical, reasoning adults and not be able to discuss a "disagreement" like what we say we are? Last I checked, this is a FORUM, not a playground. The constant bickering and open fighting really needs to stop, here and now, if we are to continue as a community. If not, than maybe we should just close up shop and let pinball die. That is where this is heading, anyway. The final end of pinball as we know it. I didn't want to be the one to say this, now I feel like shit for it, but someone had to say it. With everything said, I'm going to pour a cold frosty glass of beer and play some VP.

 

[bob]

Leo!!!!! I love ya man! You're the greatest VP author of all time and that ain't BS!

i am not going here again, enough mud-slinging was/is done over this, but personally I think he is doing a great job.

I don't think anyone would say Noah's site isn't the greatest VP site ever.... He has done a fantastic job, even though shiva didn't lift a finger to help.

 

[Eala Dubh Sidhe]

VP9 sux. (my opinion only so no crying)
I have just finished testing my HUGE collection of VP tables on VP9 and less than 15 % of them work properly. Most you can't play at all. The rest have many gfx glitches.
Not a smart move to release an update that renders the bulk of tables done useless.

BTW: Y'all suk ( especially Bob ) so shut up.

Then, er, don't use it? The polls on VPF before it went down indicated that the majority of users still prefer VP8, or at least, don't care enough about VP9 not to use both versions. And why should they, until the amount of available working VP9 tables is enough to make VP8 obsolete? It's the same with any new piece of software.

 

[Leo_Wanker]

VP9 sux. (my opinion only so no crying)
I have just finished testing my HUGE collection of VP tables on VP9 and less than 15 % of them work properly. Most you can't play at all. The rest have many gfx glitches.
Not a smart move to release an update that renders the bulk of tables done useless.

BTW: Y'all suk ( especially Bob ) so shut up.

Then, er, don't use it? The polls on VPF before it went down indicated that the majority of users still prefer VP8, or at least, don't care enough about VP9 not to use both versions. And why should they, until the amount of available working VP9 tables is enough to make VP8 obsolete? It's the same with any new piece of software.

Hey Eala.
Nowhere in my post did I say i was going to use it. You assumed that.
"testing"
That is the operative word.
One question comes to mind:
Who exactly is going to re-make all those VP8 tables into VP9 tables??
That was a rhetorical question so, no need to answer.

 

[shiva]

I don't think anyone would say Noah's site isn't the greatest VP site ever.... He has done a fantastic job, even though shiva didn't lift a finger to help.

Well there you go, since he's done a fantastic job, I don't need to. Nothing I like better now than not helping if people don't need my help and don't ask for it either.

 

[Humid]

I've been into VP for about 3 years, which I discovered by stumbling into a torrent. I perused many of the archived discussions at VPF.com to catch the gist of what had happened in the early 'glory' days. Sort of like rock music in the 60's, heady, creative excitement by guys who were tripping on the high of that time.

Reading the expressed opinions of Shiva and Noah about the state of today's VP is kinda like hearing Robert Plant explaining how a real rocker should behave to Chris Martin of Coldplay. Shiva and Noah have both earned my respect and gratitude with their deep seated devotion to this pinball experience. I won't compare Zep to Coldplay, nor Shiva's contributions to Noah's.

I recently felt inspired to try my first mod, primarily because I wanted to contribute something back into the scene that has given me 100's of hours of pleasure. I've continued to see mods and tables from new authors and Noah's tutorial section was that little boost I needed to go for it.

Sure, I wish that Shiva and Pacdude and Gottlieb and Kid C and other amazing talents hadn't tired of the BS and tuned out, but that's life. Few artists sustain high creative output year after year before they feel they've accomplished enough, and say 'let someone else have the spotlight'.

I believe in Noah's determination to maintain an optimistic energy for VP's future. I agree that the 'flavor' of his site is more serious than Nirvana, but perhaps the disciplined atmosphere can still nuture the next wave of authors. I see The Org as the classroom and Nirvana as recess, nicely complimenting each other.

As The McD likes to say 'My Two Cents'
As Shockman likes to say ' Don't Ban Me'

 

[shiva]

Very nice words Humid.

I do wish I had the time now that I use to, but I don't, I just have time for myself. I guess I'm jaded now after 9 years, it sure sounds like it, but then I don't think there's anyone around that's been screwed as much as I have because I put my trust in someone's hands that I shouldn't of.

It's all about trust isn't it. No matter who you are, from the King to the peon, you all have to rely on others, and you expect a certain fairness and equality, not just from one person, but from everyone. If you don't get it, then you become like me, or KidC, or Stein.

But... I still have my love for pinball. Even though I choose to no longer share it, it's not for the actual reasons that others will point out. It's because being away from things means I am no longer influenced by other people, I develop my own ways not bound by other peoples expectations or demands, and thus, I now can express myself the way I want to in my designs, just like VP was originally intended to be.

I'm retired as a developer, because I no longer am capable of being a developer. I've become something else. In the last couple years, I have learned more about what I am truly capable of than I have the previous 45 years, but it's also too personal as well. It may sound a bit weird (but how would you describe it) but being able to go beyond the limits than you think is possible will do that, especially when you end up surprising yourself big time.

Just being able to go "wow, I never knew I could do that" is far more addicting than anything the community could ever offer me.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

I wish I could write as eloquently as Nic.... He should get paid for this sh1t.

haha... thanks, bob. that's what happens when you have a drink for the first time in a while.

thankfully i drink very little anymore. but there's always the day after 'what stupid shit did i say to someone online or in RL' that often embarrasses me.

BTW, I went to a Chinese restaurant for dinner....

you can never go wrong with chinese.

i love these semi-recent wave of chinese buffets that have cantonese, american and sushi spread out across many aisles. all-you-can-eat lunches are only $6-7. do they have those around dayton?

 

[bob]

We have those Chinese buffets everywhere.... The speak/understand very little English, but the food is always great.

 

[Meecro Hyperion]

BTW, I went to a Chinese restaurant for dinner....

What a coincidence, I just went to China for dinner (a wedding)!

We have those Chinese buffets everywhere.... The speak/understand very little English, but the food is always great.

So tell them you like their food in a language they can understand: Zhen houchi! (badly pronounced 'jern howtree' but they'll get it)

If you're really looking for cool games, the consoles nowadays are incredible....

Mobile phones are the new neo consoles (and almost everyone has one who can afford one).

First mob with a 1Ghz processor released recently....

Maybe 'Pinball Trek - The Next Generation' needs VP to be ported to phone OS's like OS X (iphone), Win-mob, Symbian, Android etc.

Then maybe pinball will be a 'cool thing to impress your friends', and the geeks will want to build originals to show-off even more....

It isn't a resource hog, doesn't need great graphics acceleration or a mega processor.
VB translation to other compilable languages can be automated. Collections are just simple objects (hash arrays)....

The iphone alone generated $1B in software downloads in the first year of it's online s/w shop's operation.....

Nanotech - are you listening?
Randy?
Anyone?

If VP became a fad in China I think the word 'revitalize' would be an understatement. They _LOVE_ everything American over there.

 

[bob]

What a coincidence, I just went to China for dinner (a wedding)!

Wow, that must have been exciting!

The iphone alone generated $1B in software downloads in the first year of it's online s/w shop's operation.....

My son has created a few games for this, his real life occupation is also programming. He paid for his Mac in the first couple weeks after releasing his first game....

http://www.terminalcoregames.com/index.html

 

[sleepy]

Hey Bob, would he be interested in programming a pinball editor?

 

[bob]

Hey Bob, would he be interested in programming a pinball editor?

He is a board game geek. He's not the least bit interested in Visual Pinball.... I gave him my real Pinball Table about 5 years ago and it's still sitting in my basement, even though it was in his bedroom when he was growing up.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

He is a board game geek.

i would love to pick his mind about board games... do you know what his faves are?

 

[bob]

i would love to pick his mind about board games... do you know what his faves are?

He has a large finished full basement and he has games stacked in shelves from the floor to the ceiling all around one room of the basement with a game table in the middle. Then he has a MAME cabinet, bar, electronic dart game, Fooseball table and my old pool table (which was a good one) spread out in the rest of the basement. It's a nice setup.

He likes playing those games where you do like 3 to 5 things on your turn, I hate those games.

He talks about this site a lot, but I don't know his screen name. Here is a list of their top rated board games.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/browse/boardgame