shady fashion

[Shockman]

Noah Fentz Admin. of vpforums.org
[Didn't feel like going back and quoting Loaf's post ... Insert here.]

I thought it was a perfectly good example of what's to come, whether it be Tron, Transformers,AC/DC, or whatever, that is the direction it's going.

I know from speaking personally with Gary, Roger, George, Rick, Jack, and pretty much every other person in the industry who has say in the matter ... When lines are crossed, it'll be me/VPF they think of. It's just the way it is, since I personally approached them seeking their okay to do what we do, and I got it, albeit unofficially. I don't do things in shady fashion, I prefer to take the high road.

We are currently the only site with any permission to do what we do from those in the industry, and we'll do it with respect.

Any table, whether using ROM rips or other sources using the same layouts and art as machines currently in production is inappropriate. The agreement regarding VPinMAME was probably intended to be all encompassing, since it was an era in which ROM emulation was the primary method of recreating. Since then, many new techniques have been used which can accurately recreate new tables. While this may be an assumption, I feel it falls dead center in the spirit and motivation of the agreement in the first place.

PS - Please keep it civil guys.

.http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=24403&page=4

 

[Shockman]

This thread is in the FP forums and is very interesting.

The Visual PinMAME version that includes drivers that support the newer STERN http://www.sternpinball.com/ SAM code games was not created for FP.

I don't have time now, but intend, by the time I am finished contributing to this thread to have an answer from Stern on this subject, and hopefully certain points like VPF being the only site with permission to have the transfer of licence that Stern has once held. And in general Sterns stand on copyright. You see I don't believe for a second that a company that has been licensed content would even suggest that it is OK for someone else to use their resources to infringe on that.

We need clarity once and for all. We need to understand Sterns POV on giving any site or general permission to "do what we do" SAM or not. We need to understand this implied time frame and how it could possibly trump law. We need to read first hand that the movie and music industry is either on board or taken out of the loop.

Though the thread would suggest that this is an FP issue. vpforums.org chat would suggest otherwise. I have seen pics of just about every one of these SAM games posted followed by alerts to certain members to "check their PMs"

 

[Itchigo]

Actually I plan to talk to Gary again this year....

 

[sleepy]

And I expect to see Gary sometime this year.
Gary is very approachable and anyone can easily e-mail him and may get a response. I know I did.

But now, 'when lines are crossed' could be construed as 'when sold for commercial gain', or, strictly refer to the Cab trade and is now being stretched out of proportion.

I talked to John Popadiuk in 2001 about it and he said it was cool as long as money wasn't being made. I also talked on the phone to Jim Patla about permissions and Mata Hari and he said the property belonged to the license holders of Bally, and so he wouldn't comment. Obviously, those two conversations were not about the .org.

Maybe they have had a change of heart and are now supporting the .org due to monetary considerations? Or the licensing connections to Ultrapin?

But you know, I once said that Monopoly would make a good pinball, and video slots game, and a pretty good Scratchers game, but so what?

 

[faralos]

the key words are 'currently in production'
there ain't that many pins still being made at this time
so technically we're in the clear except for the newest pins

 

[Shockman]

The so called 'leak' of the SAM enabled VPMAME was obviously a limited release that exceeded the limit. The fact that destruk was not banned from VPF for this eliminates any credibility from Noah Fentz as he claims to be taking the high road. The fact that working VPM tables were discussed and shared in the chat an PMs at vpforums.org further lower the road and make VPF the worse place in the world to have any blessings from the industry, not the 'only'.

 

[faralos]

in answer to the SAM pins
we were told we had to wait three years
until Stern themselves released the sam programming thingie
so in honor of that agreement all of us have decided NOT to make the newer pins
even without a rom since that is possible
but just a rude thing to do and a possible ban on certain sites
if we were to go against the verbal agreement and make the pin

 

[Shockman]

the key words are 'currently in production'
there ain't that many pins still being made at this time
so technically we're in the clear except for the newest pins

On that note regarding Farsights licence Noah Fentz posts

Then you're not catching the logic.

If it has yet to be done, it should be a Farsight exclusive.

By being 'done' he is talking about being done in Visual Pinball and Visual PinMAME and hosted at his sight. I too am not catching the logic. It's not like he is licensed to distribute these as well. He is not and they are. Why would this not also pertain to current production running Pinballs? It would not and it would not make any difference.

If the creators of the forum software was to tell everyone that they could put up a copy of the VPF website because it is they that own the software Noah Fentz is using, you would learn real fast what Paul himself thinks about this logic.

The fact is if it is only Farsight that is licensed then they should have the exclusive and none other should exist. There is no high road in saying anything as selfish as that.

 

[Itchigo]

Maybe they have had a change of heart and are now supporting the .org due to monetary considerations?

I don't see that. I think if anything it hurts the situation. It shows there IS money to be made in some fashion. This was supposed to be a hobby after all.

Rukia and I at the last expo.

 

[Shockman]

in answer to the SAM pins
we were told we had to wait three years
until Stern themselves released the sam programming thingie
so in honor of that agreement all of us have decided NOT to make the newer pins
even without a rom since that is possible
but just a rude thing to do and a possible ban on certain sites
if we were to go against the verbal agreement and make the pin

It's possible with and without VPM now. It is also done. Either the buck of VPF responsibility stops well below Paul as I suspect he does feel, or VPF is responsible for that.

 

[Shockman]

Noah Fentz Admin. of vpforums.org
I'm not even sure what you're asking or where the confusion lies.

It's simple logic. If it's still in production or available NIB, how is there any doubt that it's inappropriate?

Farsight has expressed their interest in going new Stern tables to nearly coincide with launch. They license these, and they should be exclusive to them. They have been kind and understanding of our work, as have the manufacturers.

Why would we not do the same?

Sent from my Prism using Tapatalk 2

The confusion lies in these rules that you say exist but obviously don't. Time can have a factor in copyright law, but not the kind of time you mention, and certainly not the point of the end of commercial distribution. Distribution runs can end, and start back up because of underestimation of demand. Support can go on after the run.

What is that time frame again? When Gary Stern says you can host Cameron’s AVATAR through his license with Twentieth Century Fox? Three years after he is done with it? LOL. You would not be fucking with your site any more than Sterns future. He has no right to give you permission to use his licensed material because he does not own it. He can never ever say the things you claim he has said. Otherwise he is a fool and his business future is in jeopardy. If Gary is a fool, Paul, and you are 'taking the high road' then clear that up.

 

[sleepy]

Not if Stern paid for exclusive Pinball Rights. Then Gary could allow free distribution since that only covers the use of copyrighted materials in a pinball machine or game.

Also, both FOX and Cameron Pace Group are both Likely to ignore any such usage since obviously, a free Avatar game offers future promotional consideration for the film on Netflix and disk, particularly since the pinball rights are already paid for. Normally, any promotional games would be paid for by FOX or by Cameron Pace Group, or by Cameron's main studio in Santa Monica.

The issue here is about any one site claiming exclusive Rights to the Visual Pinball/VPM/FP versions beyond the three year waiting period which chafes the Visual Pinball/VPinMame/MAME eula.

That or, any one site owner gaining exclusive Rights to the recreations from Gary.

 

[Shockman]

He could allow free distribution of his physical pinball machine but he is not going to do that. Visual Pinball in all its forms regardless of the control devices is a video game.

What if someone approached FOX and said that they have the means to recreate a real pinball game exactly like the AVATAR game that Gary Stern has built. Would they say yes. Would Gary be happy about it.

The licenses that Gary has is the issue and the agreement made with Paul if what Paul says is true actually is, is the issue. The point is that if someone wanted what Paul wants then the pinball industry would be last on the list for clearance, not the only.

The simple question put to Stern is did they make the agreement Paul says they did, and if that agreement went through all the IP holders involved. If that is the case, then the question is is that an exclusive. You see all the IP holders would have to set aside all future potential to agree to that and it would not be like shooting themselves in the foot, it would be like shooting themselves in the head. Visual Pinball nor vpforums.org is even on their list for Christs sake when it comes to future promotional consideration for the film, the pinball machine or anything else.

The IP that is proprietary to Stern is the only IP that can not be used in the least in this endeavor. Physical pinball machines will never exist in a video game. Any Video game no matter how close in a still image will never have the IP that is Sterns'. The Video, images, music, sound, and even text on the other hand can be reproduced and just like Stern had to license it, only a complete idiot would think they don't have to.

Rights, it is the most dangerous to this hobby idea anyone in this hobby could claim.

 

[Shockman]

If nothing else, this should leave no doubt that nothing you read from Noah can be trusted. He continues to try not only to split up the community but to do it absolutely. It shows that in his mind there is no other legitimate aspect of this hobby beside his business.

 

[faralos]

Egos aside i can see his point too being a former scoutmaster
one gets a huge ego hit when one becomes the leader of anything
it is human nature to go that route
and my ego in my position led to my downfall as a scoutleader
thinking with my ego and not my head
i ain't saying anything for or against anyone any more
I like all four vp sites here, vpf, Dazz's and Itch's
and won't hurt anyone with postings of what I personally think is right or not
each of us rule in our own ways some do it with ease some become Caligula's
or mini hitlers and often don't see the entire picture
pinball has to be saved no matter what and again I think still
the more sites the better yes even the ego driven ones!!

 

[Shockman]

VirtuaPin runs SAM enabled Stern games

1 of 1 == Date: xxx, Oct xx 20xx xx:xx am From: xxxxxxxxx Anybody see the behind closed doors Virtual Pin running SAM system games in a hotel room this weekend? I know I saw Noah from VPfourms.org's in the back corner but have read that there was another outfit with a virtual pin but in one of the hotel rooms. Thanks to any info you can provide.. very curious.

Just a taste of what is being collected.

 

[sleepy]

Might we be taking Noah out of context?

With no intent to be argumentative, I'll just say that whether it's on VPF or not, it's not appropriate as per our agreement with Stern. While we are powerless to do anything about it, the first site and/or person they'll think of when seeing these violations is VPF/me. Regardless of who or where, it could indeed make them reconsider their stance on our community and cause us a lot of grief.

These are the things many people seem to not even consider as a possibility, but the potential is most certainly there. This is why we make some of the decisions we make. To protect the community.

Looks like when Noah says that VPF is the only site with unofficial permission to do what we all are doing, that what he is saying is, if the shit hits the fan, it will be blamed on him. I don't think he's saying that Noah has anything exclusive regarding the community's permissions for non-commercial use.

Secondly, a Stern Pincab. How do we know it wasn't by agreement, the same as Ultrapin? For Commercial Cab Use Only?

This is because Gary has been in contact with Noah and Destruk at the Pinball Expo, for no less than the fact that Stern is the host of the Expo. So I would gather that the Stern Pincab on display was registered with the Expo and Stern Pinball in order to do so. I saw the apps at the official website for Pinball Expo, hosted and orchestrated by Stern Pinball, that are required to be completed before displaying anything in the main quarters.

Unless Noah and Destruk snuck one, huh?

 

[Shockman]

The creation of the SAM pinmame lib. was actually a couple of years ago. It was created by and distributed by destruk and got out of hand. I have also gathered some instructions that went along with the acceptance of it, like no posting screenshots, public discussion, and further passing it on. Then there is the shady fashion of the behind door SAM enabled machine. This all points away from it being by agreement.

 

[Itchigo]

I cant comment on the Sam stuff, I'm only responding to Faralos's post.
I have no problem with you talking about what's right or wrong. In fact, I'd hope you'd speak up. It's a good thing to have these kind of checks and balances imo.

 

[Shockman]

Egos aside i can see his point too being a former scoutmaster
one gets a huge ego hit when one becomes the leader of anything
it is human nature to go that route
and my ego in my position led to my downfall as a scoutleader
thinking with my ego and not my head
i ain't saying anything for or against anyone any more
I like all four vp sites here, vpf, Dazz's and Itch's
and won't hurt anyone with postings of what I personally think is right or not
each of us rule in our own ways some do it with ease some become Caligula's
or mini hitlers and often don't see the entire picture
pinball has to be saved no matter what and again I think still
the more sites the better yes even the ego driven ones!!

If you were a bit more than a scoutleader, say leader of the scouts or leader of a few packs then your downfall could have had larger consequences. I think Paul has put himself in a position where his downfall would be our downfall. Even he seems to agree, saying another site doing FP without VP, VPF, or VPM, but with SAM could be his downfall. I don't agree with that myself but just think it's a smokescreen to steer people away from the fact that it was VPM and VPF staff that created and released SAM enabled VPM, which his company is at least dabbling in, if not covertly pursuing, and his downfall is not going to be because of another site doing non emulated SAM with FP.

 

[sleepy]

I still think that indicates a private commercial agreement with Gary to produce a Stern-supported Cab. You realize that Paul could otherwise be held liable by Gary Stern for copyright infringement as a commercial company?

Or, the existence of the Stern Cab may have been present in the backroom as a Proof of Concept demonstration for Gary. Or, the 'leak' of the SAM VPinMame could also simply be a teaser not meant to be reproduced by anyone else.
Remember, the Ultrapin agreement did not prohibit the recreation of tables. What if Gary owns a piece of Paul's Cab business?

 

[Shockman]

That's all true, and the question. My not believing it for a second does not eliminate the possibility and the possibility does not eliminate doubt. Unfortunately, knowing Paul as I do, answers don't either. If there is a NDA agreement, that would explain the business end, but expound on the conflict of interest as a community leader in my opinion. If this is his business model in my opinion he should drop the community and the community should drop him. The community is not going to morph into cabinet users as a whole even if the tech. was 20 years ahead of where it is now.

If he has the deal you suggest there would not be a NDA I think and there would be no exclusives. There are too many entities that own the actual IP that make up the themes that would never commit to an exclusive to such a small no return market, and certainly not to just a portion of it.

Or, the existence of the Stern Cab may have been present in the backroom as a Proof of Concept demonstration for Gary. Or, the 'leak' of the SAM VPinMame could also simply be a teaser not meant to be reproduced by anyone else.

Shady fashion, yes. That's why I named this thread as I did. It could just be Shady fashion.

That's why a pithy but probing question to Stern and the studios is in order.

What Paul is saying better be true. What people are observing better not be.

 

[Noah Fentz]

Might we be taking Noah out of context?



Looks like when Noah says that VPF is the only site with unofficial permission to do what we all are doing, that what he is saying is, if the shit hits the fan, it will be blamed on him. I don't think he's saying that Noah has anything exclusive regarding the community's permissions for non-commercial use.

Secondly, a Stern Pincab. How do we know it wasn't by agreement, the same as Ultrapin? For Commercial Cab Use Only?

This is because Gary has been in contact with Noah and Destruk at the Pinball Expo, for no less than the fact that Stern is the host of the Expo. So I would gather that the Stern Pincab on display was registered with the Expo and Stern Pinball in order to do so. I saw the apps at the official website for Pinball Expo, hosted and orchestrated by Stern Pinball, that are required to be completed before displaying anything in the main quarters.

Unless Noah and Destruk snuck one, huh?

The answer is yes, definitely out of context. Being taken out of context seems to be a quite common strategy when defaming someone online.

Thank you, sleepy. At least someone here gets it.

Phil, you really need to just drop it. Your conspiracy theories are nothing short of laughable, as are most of the posts I've read regarding who I am and what I do. Anyone is free to give me a call and find out just what I'm all about.

Thank you.

Phil Collins - I Dont Care Anymore (Official Music Video) - YouTube

 

[Shockman]

If there is missing context then it is nothing I have removed. But it's why I label it Shady and not a lie.

 

[Shockman]

Anything that can benefit the entire community that you would want exclusively would be misplaced. It would be Shady, it would be immoral, and it would be unethical in any context.