Tables pulled from VPF.org

[Shockman]

I had my tables pulled from VPF.org
Not because I was banned from there, but because the Admin. told me that there would be balls through the flipper 20% of the time on them, or 20% of that, or something, I don't know what he was saying, but he seemed to have it all worked out, and I had billed them as it not being possible, let alone unlikely to happen. Just in case he is being honest about, and although I have been complimented many times on my flipper settings, at least on some versions, and although I have never had a report of a ball through the flipper in all the years they were out, not a single time, I can not take any chance, because when that 20% chance hits, though I think it is closer to 0.00000000000001% than 20%, I will be a failure, and my tables a fraud as billed. So it's best. Besides they use a technique that the site as a policy, (as I could not have the remarks edited, and I did try), determined is half &&&, works half the time which it actually 50%, and the cause of VP is not be fix properly. And the downswing has been reported as instant, which is infinitely faster than I thought they were or intended them to be. I had the VP9 table pulled as well because I have once heard that a ball has gone through a flipper in VP9, so no telling what will happen to it either, I'm sure as far as they are concerned that one time was my fault. So though I did not care if they were there or not, I don't think the site wanted them there, if they were that bad, and used a technique that was that bad. Besides I would hate for part of my work to be replaced with a big red strobe as the leader of the VP development team would like to see in place of it.

I will make sure they are available elsewhere though, including putting the latest versions up here. They will have the work around in the script to make it harder for the devs to replace it with a strobe as the leader has expressed preference to.

 

[Shockman]

Although Noah has created a thread saying he has banned me there, and though I of course have no way of seeing it (even if I hacked my way back in, I would have to have VIP status to see it).

The fact that I announced it myself here at Pinball Nirvana had him mail me that there was now no chance I could be a member at his site again.

It's really bad news. It is a nice site other than them maintaining that single thread for all to see. If it was even half true, it would be one thing, but it was just too provocative. I tried it in what I believed was his way. I told him I was offended by it, that I wanted an explanation for it and left to cool off for three days, confident that it would have been moderated while I was away. Needless to say, well it's needless to say.

Either destruk really wants to replace the flipper problem work-around with a big read strobe, and remove the code that reduces the problem, (unless edited in the script very poorly, or eliminates it if set in the core script well), Or he just said that to provoke. Flame bait. I don't know which one it was, and that's why I asked for an explanation. This bothered me and worried me. This and his saying that my work-around makes it nearly impossible to fix in the program properly. This too just cries for an explanation. It's not like this was said in private either. It is a thread that remains in the Visual Pinball sub forum to this hour, a relative high traffic area. But to what end? To what end one member say to another the things that are the worse that they could hear? To what end could he have in mind?

The site has so much going for it too. It's really sad. I really wanted to be a part of it, but not as a whipping post.

I don't not recommend the site, I do recommend it. I think this was something personal, unless what destruk said about him rather replacing the workaround was indeed true. And I hope in a way it is. Because if it was not, and just said to provoke, then this is all his fault.

I liked him as much as the rest of us too, and am baffled that he would say those things.
He recomended that I give the work-around to the VPM team for inclusion in the core.vbs file, and never said a bad thing about it in all these years. Now that it is fixed in the version he is heading up, it's the worse thing to happen to VP ever. I just don't get it.

In my opinion, everyone should be worried if he is being honest, because he certainly has the power to do that, to take it out, and replace it with a bug marker.

People should be able to voice their opinion on the announced, not speculated direction of VP. I did not. It was always contrary, but I kept it under my hat. When I was told that saying crap like that in a thread about VPs ball through the problem, was only opinion, then I thought it would be OK to give some opinions I was reluctant too before. Big mistake. They don't "get over it Shockman"!!!! They deal with it

 

[bob]

Although Noah has created a thread saying he has banned me there, and though I of course have no way of seeing it (even if I hacked my way back in, I would have to have VIP status to see it).

The thread isn't visible to VIP's, it was only to inform a few testers that you were banned.

The fact that I announced it myself here at Pinball Nirvana had him mail me that there was now no chance I could be a member at his site again.

He doesn't like this site, but that is a silly reason to never negotiate with you.

It's really bad news. It is a nice site other than them maintaining that single thread for all to see. If it was even half true, it would be one thing, but it was just too provocative. I tried it in what I believed was his way. I told him I was offended by it, that I wanted an explanation for it and left to cool off for three days, confident that it would have been moderated while I was away. Needless to say, well it's needless to say.

I thought you were too agreeable with the staff in the beginning, then you went a little overboard. You read things into people posts that aren't there. Destruk made an error, apologized before you posted, that should have been the end of it.... There was no reason to go back into the past at that point.

Use this place, no one else seems to. Bring some life back to PN.

 

[Rick2007]

I like Shockman, and his posts.

He reminds me of the Participants in Debate Club in high school.

He chooses a side to debate, and the proceeds to shred
the opposing side to pieces.

Fun to read,,,,,,,,,, I don't get invoved,,, Don't need to be
handed my A** H-----

Rick

 

[Shockman]

A few testers Bob? If I'm thrown out of that, the NDA is thrown out with me. I did not walk out on that.
It's just one of the things I will miss about VPF, if I am really going to stay banned for not taking kindly to being insulted, and one of my contributions which is not even related is disrespected to that degree.
I deleted that post when I cooled off a bit. But it was put back up. Why do you suppose that was?

The l-o-n-g one you brought up was only a part of the history of the quest and discovery and badmouthed PacDude, and no one else. When read by the members it was intended for it was taken down. The wrong place anyway you might say? I would agree. But I don't think a thread about the ball through the flipper problem in VP8 is the right place to tell me that my 'fix' SUCKS, it's worse than the problem, it's the reason VP8 was never fixed. BULL SHIT. It was an entry that people can put into the script of their tables, and it is not long like has been shown. It's adding LeftFlipper.Speed=xxx, and likewise for the right in the key down sub. How does this contribute to any problems? It was not my idea to put it into the .vbs file, I had nothing to do with the ball through the flipper problem being in VP8 or staying in VP8.

 

[StevOz]

Putting it in the core.vbs 4 VP8 was a good idea though, don't ya think?

 

[TheMcD]

I like Shockman, and his posts.

He reminds me of the Participants in Debate Club in high school.

He chooses a side to debate, and the proceeds to shred
the opposing side to pieces.

Fun to read,,,,,,,,,, I don't get invoved,,, Don't need to be
handed my A** H-----

Rick

I have to agree. If I were in charge, Shockman quite probably wouldn't have been banned, because I wouldn't be able to cope with the storm of debate that comes with it.

To be blunt, I still don't have a fucking clue what was going on. I see no thread informing anybody that Shockman was banned. Either I'm blind or it's gone. Probably the former.

Eh, figure I'll find out some more over time. Hope all this this clears out before the shit that hit the fan has spread across the whole fucking room, so to speak.

The McD

 

[Shockman]

Yes. I support it being in the core.vbs file. I most certainly do, because with it not there. Loosing balls would be default, and not the result of tinkering.

I support it being in the script as well, expanded on as you do with relative power settings to match, if it is made clear that when using VPM, it is redundant.

Loosing balls is not good, regardless of any alternatives, real or imagined.

Depending on your playing style, loosing balls, and I am talking about loosing them, not missing them, or draining them, could otherwise happen anywhere from seldom, to very often indeed.

If you flip whenever the ball is in range of the flipper, you will seldom see it.

If your style is to dead catch, and to trap, and to pass the ball, etc. then you would otherwise seldom have a game without it happening.

Randy Davis says that it does not happen to him and he can not reproduce it. I suspect it is his playing style, not his machine.

 

[Shockman]

I have also said many times that this is no fix.

What this is is a way for the few, or the many, whatever it is truly is, to be able to play a game without worry that it is going to happen when you just scored 9,000,000,000 points, opened up a Wizard mode for the first time in your life, and see three balls coming at your flippers. Without the workaround, if you see that, you damn well better stop playing, meaning you better get those flipper up and hold them up, or you better just take your fingers off the keyboard and keep those flipper down.

 

[Shockman]

I thought you were too agreeable with the staff in the beginning, then you went a little overboard. You read things into people posts that aren't there. Destruk made an error, apologized before you posted, that should have been the end of it.... There was no reason to go back into the past at that point.

Too agreeable? I don't know what the means. Even if I did, I would not mean that I know what you meant by it. Just as I did not know what destruk meant about saying that my sharing the discovery of a built in VP setting that no one was using, and would rarely if ever, have a ball through the flipper if they did, was an alteration of the code, or even an introduction of code that made it nearly impossible to fix VP8's problem with the flipper collision function.

It did not come before anyone even knew that there was a bug in VP. It did not come soon after, it came long after. It was not covert, and it got plenty of discussion.

Nor could I understand why any opinion about it was important, and relevant enough, at this point to say it sucked, was half @@@, and was worse than the problem.

Nor could I understand why it would be said that it is instant on or off, and worked only half the time.

Nor could I understand why when a new member asks about balls through the flipper in VP8 that they would be told there is no fix. Though I agree that there is no proper fix, I think it is a disservice to say that there is no fix and leave it at that, because there certainly is a way to deal with the problem.

I misunderstood other comments, like "VP8 is dead, and I don't think the code is good, and I don't like it in the .vbs files, and I delete it from everywhere I find it and it makes it harder to program tables with VP9". I don't understand it, but am assured there is a point, so I agree I misunderstood it.

Nor do I understand why any member would say such things in that rude, one sided, and untrue manor, and refuse to explain their points when asked.

Nor do I understand why I am banned while every one of those untrue statements about my contribution remain, something I said in the heat of passion that was deleted when I cooled off a bit would be restored, and things I said about my non personal and honest opinion on what should be worked on in VP deleted.

I have never been too agreeable in my opinion, and I have never been too disagreeable in my opinion. On thing is clear though in this case. I was not any more disagreeable than those in that thread that they turned into a flame bait of my work, and I would respond to any query into my words.

 

[StevOz]

Are you sure you are banned there Shockman?

Either way your tables have not been pulled and can still be downloaded at the .org

 

[Shockman]

Yes. I am sure. I have been trying to log in. First when I was told that the tables could be put back up when I decided to come back. Then again after I told him that he could put the tables back up. Then just now again. I am most certainty banned.
Yes. My tables are there again. And I suppose can me downloaded. But not by me, the creator.

 

[Shockman]

I do read the forums every day, logged off of course so I can. Twice though I have started to get involved in a conversation, out of habit, and was reminded that what I have to contribute is of so little importance, that it is not allowed. A bit sad, but just life.

Maybe it's not because it is unimportant, but is not always in agreement. Perhaps if I was going out of my way to agree with members that were going out of their way to disagree with me, whether I brought it up or not, whether I was involved or not, all would be well. Sad as well, and perhaps life as well.

 

[bob]

Too agreeable? I don't know what the means. ..........................
..........................

I have never been too agreeable in my opinion, and I have never been too disagreeable in my opinion. On thing is clear though in this case. I was not any more disagreeable than those in that thread that they turned into a flame bait of my work, and I would respond to any query into my words.

When I said you were too agreeable..... I meant in the thread about uploading tables and then not asking to remove them. You must have posted 10 or more times about how frickin' stupid we were to want to have control of our own tables. You practically were sleeping with Noah on this issue AND THEN.....

You post this thread about having your tables removed from VPF. Well, they are not and they shouldn't ever be removed after all of the support you gave to NOT allowing authors to have control of their OWN tables on VPF.org.

 

[Shockman]

I did not feel I had a right to have those tables pulled.

The requesting post was a joke, though it was not meant to be funny.

I told him that I had it on good authority that the tables I put up do not work as billed, and needed further testing and perhaps a lot more work. This of course was in reference to the thread that says the problems' work-around sucks, is half assed, and worse than having balls through the flipper, and of course his involvement, namely his argument with 'Oz about it working, and his insistence that it does not work. By work, meaning work as billed, as being able to prevent the problem 100% if set well.
I have worked on Phantom of the Opera in VP9, of course there is problems with that. One is that when done, and anyone could verify this, the ball will not launch. I have converted another table where the ball would not clear the shooter lane. This of course in neither event means that the plunger does not work. It merely means it needed different settings, or adjustments. Same with the downswing of the flippers. If set well it is 100% effective in moving the flippers faster than the pinball is rolling.

So I know you are bright enough to understand that it was a protest of the untruths about the contribution. I don't know how much of that remains, as I have had a few posts deleted, but I will remind you of things I think everyone, except new members like he that asked about it know.

-It is not instant off and on. As apparent from past arguments, it is about the same speed as authors were using for the upswing, which no one has called instant. This means it is the speed that was intended, meaning a match of the upswing speed. It was the VPMdev that slowed down the downswing in the core.vbs file, adding to the likelihood of the problem occurring. So before that, it is exactly, actually .002 slower than what PacDude thought it was, because if any author knew about the slowdown in the core.vbs file, they did not say, and certainly did not consider what it was doing. 1.0 is instant, .135 is far from it.

- It works more than half the time. That argument is lame, deceptive, and a lie. Deserves the response it gets, none.

- It had nothing to do with the problem being fixed. The argument made there was a good one. That it made people content and hid it. But it was discussed, and not just a little, both before and after we got tired of waiting for a proper fix. Of course, acording to Mr. Davis, it was not fixed because it did not happen to him and he could not reproduce it.

- The collision mask is not a small point in the center of the ball. And in a thread about the problem, is an attempt to misinform. Collision masks are not dynamic that way, and if was a small point in the center of the ball the ball would be half way through everything. VP is better than that. Better than being built with a collision mask that did not match the ball. The true problem of course is that the flippers either did not check for collisions on the top of the flipper when the flipper is moving down. It does however have collision checking for the bottom of the flipper when the flipper is moving down, Or there was a bug in that code that prevented it from working.

- Gravity does not govern the return speed of a flipper. That ends that argument.

- VP has no fix for the ball through the flipper. I can not and never would argue about that. But when a newbie asks, I would not say it has no fix, and leave it at that, then continue to try to drive that into the newbies head with misinformation. It is a disservice. It was intended as a disservice, or destruk, and Paul don't know about the work-around, and I know for a fact that destruk does, and that he hates it, and he hates me for introducing it. Paul seemed to know about it, saying it fails too often.

- the speed of the ball in relation to the flipper is not the cause of the ball through the flipper problem. Scores of times I heard it defined as "happening when the ball is moving faster than the flipper is going downward, but of course this is not entirely true. It's a fact, but it is not a definition, because of course it would happen if a ball is going slower than the flipper is moving down. Straight down of course it would not make contact, if the flipper was moving down faster but this can be verified by dropping a slow ball into a flipper that is moving down faster than it from the side.

- It does not make making tables, even in VP9 any harder. Part of building a table is setting these things up. it can be used in the core if you are too lazy to set a speed for your flippers, but it can also be set in the editor or the script. the script will over-ride both the core.vbs file, and the editor settings. In VP8 there is no setting in in the editor, but the script over-rides the .vbs file. In the chain the core.vbs files setting are not used unless no settings were made to the flippers anywhere else, And how many authors don't know that, or don't even set the flippers speed themselves. This means that they can both make it so fast that it does indeed act instantly, and would be 100% effective until the day that physics do not exist, or are altered. To understand how long that is, it has never happened, and is expected to never happen, And of course they have an option of setting them so slow that the creeping down that gravity causes would not hold then when the key is released.

- They know all of this. Every bit of this. Just as well as I do.

 

[Shockman]

That's not to say that I am happy with them being there. I certainly am not.
I was not there because my tables were there, but my tables of course was there because I was there.

I actually went to sign in when Noah told me the tables could be put back up when I decided to come back, in those exact words. I was still banned, but, and I doubt that anyone would believe it, but my tables are back up. The telling him he could put them back up was an action to expedite my membership being returned, which he was suggesting was up to me. I think Paul is not stupid. I think he understood that.

So there is no point in asking him to take them down. I don't want them down, and I never did. That does not change the fact that they are now up because of a trick, and under false pretenses. If he was suggesting my ban was permanent, I would not have said he could put them back up. As far as I'm concerned he acquired them with intent of fraud, and they are stolen.

That has nothing to do with wanting my table pulled from the community. I don't, and it's not going to happen. It has to do with one particular site, VPForums.org. At least, if he was honest about me coming back being my choice, or even honest about it being not, it would be a different story. It's not because I was banned. It's not because I was fucked with about coming back when I chose, nor about the trick to get them back up. But all that combined. It's just too much. There are exceptions to rules, and though I would not have believed this could happen at VPF.org, it is an exception I have always supported.

 

[bob]

The explanation is.... You asked to be banned, so your account was set to banned. Did you receive any warnings? How come this always happens to you?

 

[Shockman]

What I asked for was to have the lies about the work-around for the ball through the flipper problem explained or deleted. I got some explanation as to some of it after I was banned.

Warnings? Yes, a few.

This always happens to me because it always happens to me. I figure it's a game. Those that feel they are untouchable, and can get away with breaking the rules seem to love to test that on me. This time it happened with destruk, and I have no doubt trurned out as he knew it would.

It's hard to explain, but it is easy to figure out. I mentioned that I was going to work on VP8's code. That is a double no no. To work on VP8, and to work on VP on my own. destruk does not like VP8 and he does not like that someone would work on something he feels is his to control. I also gave a link to a utility that anyone could use to swap out some textures including the grey round thing that VP calls it's ball with a texture of your own choosing. Just another way of going about doing the same thing without needing to know code or even the VP editor. This, as benign as it is, being that VP is OPEN, is also a no no. So three strikes. That, as well as opinions on what should be fixed in VP first, and my disappointment that it seems to be focused on niche hardware instead of a computer game, as was always intended until now. Though it was honest opinion, and may not be the case, I mentioned that it sure seemed to be the case. Others said the same time, and I was accused of causing them to express their opinion. Independent thinking has never been a problem with the members of the vitual Pinball community, and I guess it needed to be nipped in the bud.

And blogging here. That's a big one. He would rather I just disappear than to do this.

I don't know. I honestly don't.

Stacking order, transparent color, etc. is now all of a sudden the fault of computer hardware. I don't believe that, and obviously should not have said I don't believe that.

 

[lionheart88]

I haven't read everything that happened at the org but I knew you were voicing your opinion on how wrong it is for them to try and control VP. I didn't ever read anything that would have warranted a ban, I thought that was for someone being disruptive and causing trouble intentionally but to just state your opinion and get banned seems a little ridiculous to me.

Did you call Noah names and cuss or something, tell him to go fuck his self or anything like that? At what point did the discussion turn into being about ball through the flipper on your tables and who brought that up? It seems to me like maybe they got tired of arguing with you and just decided to attack you in a way that they knew would get you upset.

You are probably one of the most headstrong people I've ever encountered on the net, I mean if you believe in something that is right then no one can tell you any different and you will repeat your point as many times as needed and if you feel something is wrong you will tell it and tell it again and tell it some more because if it's wrong it's wrong and when something is right it's right.

I hate to see this kind of thing happen and I hope it's not permanent.

 

[Shockman]

They knew it would get me upset alright. But there was no argument before that. In fact I thought everything was going very well. I was surprised that to hear that the workaround was hated, and still misunderstood, but more surprised that in a thread about a bug in VP8 that our work-around would not be mentioned until 'Oz did. More surprised still that that would bring a wrath down upon it like I have never seen. It was argued against with lies, and misinformation, and that was before I ever posted in the thread. Then it was made clear that it was personal against me. The only moderation the thread got was when I defended it and pointed out the untrue things being said about it. It was perfectly fine with Noah for as long as it was one sided. How unfair is that?

I was assured that it did not work, was worse than the problem, was instant, all that untrue crap and more, and that I was causing trouble by saying otherwise. The strange thing is that it is accepted by the entire community as the only alternative to having balls go through the flipper so much that playing a game of VP is a crap shoot, and depending on you style, a sure problem in most every game.

I swear, if I had any idea why this thread happened, and what made them so upset to say such things and despise me for getting involved and defending it, I would say so.

The thread is still there, and can be read. I was not rude about it, but I wanted an explanation for it, I wanted moderation. There is even a post I deleted that was blunt, but defending, that I felt was too self serving, and deleted, that Noah restored to bolster their cause.

What I was told is that it was opinion, and therefor alright.

I can not gang up on anyone, because I am just one, so I gave my opinion on the support that is in and being worked on in VP, and the bugs it was leaving for desktop PCs. I said it was good, but VP should be put back into shape before the niche hardware support is expanded on. I believe that and did not have to lie about it. It is also something I have always thought but was willing to keep under my hat, and hope they would get back to the PC business when they got their dead zone on the wizard, the nudging sorted, and optimized VP for their three monitors in every which orientation. So because I am just one I gave my opinion, an equal number of times their opinion of my work was given. That is what got me banned. What got them gunning for me, no one has any idea but the two of them.

I may have an unmatched passion when it comes to VP, but I don't belittle people because I choose not to play their table, or use their technique, and I certainly don't if I use their work, and add their table to my collection. If something is bad quality, I don't say shit. If something is bad policy, I do.

The same thing I did that got me banned was the same thing they did that had them saying it's opinion, and I should get over it.

I just don't get it.

Permanent? The bad? I don't know. The double standard?, I would have to assume so.

 

[LeeVanCleef]

One thing I've learned by reading these posts is that, ye gads, you know your VP backwards and forewards! Mind you, it's not hard to go over my head with the technical stuff, but most of what you're posting is, for me, like a dog trying to read a comic book! You really need to channel this energy and astounding knowledge into making another table. I think there were 4 or 5 updates after the Mr. and Ms. PacMan table version I have, and I've always thought that one was great. You, VP9, a little candlelight and some soft music... something wonderful could be born!

 

[lionheart88]

Noah supposedly invented the perfect flipper settings in his and Unclereamus version of T2 and they did not like it at all when someone told them the flippers were not realistic or right, in fact I think Groni ended up getting banned for disagreeing with him.

I'm not sure if you were aware of that shockman.

I'm not trying to make Noah look bad or anything and as I've said before I don't have time to read everything so maybe I am missing some things.

Noah said "Flippers - The flippers are the absolute best flippers you're going to get in VP. I've played 19 different machines in the last few weeks to study flippers. In my opinion, they are PERFECT for this era. The rubbers behave more like red flipper rubbers (bounciness), but I like the look of black. If you don't believe the ball bounces off the flippers, you haven't played much real pinball in a while. If the flipper transfers are too difficult, try increasing the gravity/slope a little."

Noah also said"I invite everyone to create a table, just so they know how frustrating it can be at times. This table was a HUGE pain in my ass, and to hear this kind of whining really kills any desire to continue making tables."

So people were complaining about his flipper settings and he just couldn't take it, banned at least one person and made it sound as if those that didn't praise him were ungrateful and were going to cause him to not make tables anymore.

You may have been on the wrong end of some pent up hostility when it comes flipper setting.

 

[TheMcD]

Well, but Groni just basically said "Your settings are just wrong, and if you don't realize that you suck" so the hostility was there as well.

And TBH, I believe that your ban won't be permanent, Shockman. Time will pass and the tides will calm again. It's happened twice with Groni, so why not with you?

The McD

 

[Shockman]

I read the thread. I even posted in response, and this is a paraphrase

"They may be the best possible, but I hope not, because I can not aim with them" And it was true. I could just get the ball going in a general direction. Good flipper settings in my opinion, are those that you can aim at a target, not a target bank. Noah did seem to take that comment well, but there was high praise generally for the release.

Flipper settings are always going to be a personal preference. The best anyone can do is include settings they like. T2 settings looked great, and realistic, but I had to put what I have learned into them for me to be able to aim with them. It's not a big deal, and something to complain about. I actually enjoy doing it.

I might be wrong, but when I read statements like that, that this is the best it gets, and can not be improved upon, I take it as opinion, because it is an opinion, I take it "as this is the best I could come up with". I have learned long ago that VP talent grows, whether my VP talent grows along or not. Mr. & Mrs. PAC-MAN use to be state of the art, now it's just old.

That's not to say that perfect flipper settings are going to come. That's like saying an original is going to be released that has only one song in it, but it is going to be everyone's favorite song.

Downswing, as far as I can tell, and I have studied this for many hundreds of hours, does not effect flipper settings such as aiming. That's what the ShockMods were about. I, and others that used them said that now it is not a matter of aiming for a bank of targets, but aiming at the target you need in that bank, and there was no balls through the flipper, and some of them used a slow enough down swing that is otherwise could have easily happened, but when the ball was anywhere within the swing zone of the flipper, the flipper would return at the standard problem defeating speed. If there was collision detection in VP8 everywhere it was needed, of course it would add to realism, as shown in VP9, but with the problem there, I stand by what I said.

The workaround for the problem does not have anything to do with flipper settings. It is only a choice between making one element, the return of the flipper, look as real as possible, or be the least problematic as possible.

How many believe destruk has always deleted it from every .vbs file and table that used it in the script? How many think that if you did not want a fast return speed that this would be necessary? How many have played destruks tables and had balls through the flipper. He might have them, but I don't in his tables. He does not include his altered .vbs file with his tables. I doubt that VP would even work if you took the flipper code out of the .vbs file, but if it did, what settings would you have? Those settings in the script, and they have always over ridden the .vbs file.

He might change the flipper settings of the tables he downloads, many people do, and I would think most authors do, why delete code and input new settings when all you have to do is input new settings. The work-around is only hard wired to a particular settings if no setting are made by the table builder in their script. And how many authors use the default settings? Many use to use the default setting for the downswing, but because it was effective, No one was ever stuck with it.

I could be wrong, but I think both Noah and destruk understand this, if they did not, why would they refuse to discuss it? Read the thread. If they do understand this, that thread was a flame bait, and nothing less, in my opinion, and because it pertained to my contribution to the problem, I feel my opinion that it was should have been enough to prompt moderation in that thread, not a war.

I have no concern or desire to know how many would rather have the ball through the flipper, because that is subjective, and this work-around for the problem does not preclude that as a building method.

destruk does not even use VP8 any more. He says VP8 is dead. VP8 may be dead, but VP had died before, and it did not keep people from using it. To say that, in my opinion, does one of two things, it kills the tables that exist along with it, or it forces backward compatibility with thousands of tables out there, which limits improvement to the program. A true statement might be along the line .. VP8 will live on, but only in it's current state.

My ban has been explained to me as killing the 'A call to programmers" thread. I did not kill that thread. I am a programmer and announced what I would do, if I could learn to do it. And that if VP9 did not get back into shape, I would do my work on VP8. He took offence at that, just as I took offence on what was said about my work. He not only took offence, though, in this case of 'offending posts' he took action. Why? because it was against him? that is debatable, just as what they said is debatable, but they refused to debate. If they want one sided conversations, but not discussion, they will need to ban more people before they become truly happy.

 

[Shockman]

If I asked to be banned, and the reason for the ban was being asked to be banned, I would expect a discussion over it, if not an argument against.

If I am asked something like "should I just ban you?" And my response is "yes, if" then it if not clear, could be made clear as to what it meant.

If I was to ask to be banned in a sarcastic manor, That should not taken as an invitation, let alone a desire on my part.

If that is the reason for my ban, that I was asked to be banned. Asking to be unbanned would be as effective.

Banning should be reserved as a punishment for people that do what no one else would do. Certainly not for doing what others ARE doing, and is being defended by the site, as righteous. Of course that is just my opinion, and VPF his site.

So believe me. I know what upset them at one point in time, but I have no idea what upset them at the start of that thread, which was also the start of this problem, and I have no idea why I am banned. I have no idea how long it is going to stand, and I have no idea what I could do to change it, short of lying to them and telling them it was all my fault. And I am not going to lie to them.

I have been told that the door is, or at least was, always wide open, so I think that is exactly what they want to hear. That it was all my fault, and it for some strange reason is not enough to hear from each other, which they do. They have to hear it from me.