Visual Pinball V9 review

[Shockman]

-sound 80
-graphics 70
-gameplay 10

-overall 10

-Overall
We can not exceed the lowest mark I'm afraid, Visual Pinball V9 has not just dropped the ball on gameplay, they have pried the ball away. Flippers, plungers, nudging they have all taken a hit in function or have been stripped away to make room for very expensive hardware, which it just so happens the new home of VP9 sells. In other words you can get some of this function back, but you have to pay through the nose for it
Also the VP9 flipper has a big problem not registering contact with the ball. VP8 had a very similar problem, but now, instead of when the flipper is moving down, the error is when the flipper is moving up or down and happens when the ball is on a raised flipper.

-sound
Sound is not bad. Sometimes it just goes away and you have to quit the program, but that has always been the case. This is a VPM issue.

-graphics
There has been some improvements in graphics. There have been changes that should reflect on the table graphic that shows feedback to changes as the earlier view settings did. Too bad the new settings do not reflect on this. Graphics is where VP really shows it's age.

-gameplay
Absolutely no excuse for this. With a total stripping out of the nudge system of VP. There is no point in playing it if nudging is your style. In fact there is bogus code leftover in the key routines that make the ball move more like a cursor, a race car, or an airplane, but not a pinball. Not only does it not work right, it has to be avoided because it does some stupid things to the ball. No matter how good a table may look, Pinball is something to play, not sit and look at. I was tempted to put zero for gameplay, but obviously some people do not even nudge pinball tables. It has been over two years. I think it would be safe to say that no one in VP dev cares about gameplay.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

that was a totally unbiased review, yes?

seriously, i've been wanting to get back in to VP for a little while now, but it hasn't been easy. the bottom line for me... the heart and soul of the simulation... has always been the flipper performance. unfortunately VP flippers behave pretty-much the same now as they did 10+ years ago, and pro-pinball flippers are somehow still a million miles away despite the VP project finally going open-source and (presumably) a bunch of talented people joining the project. all i can say is "wow... what happened, guys?"

i don't know what the analog would be for a situation like this. something magnificent and historic like the apollo mission, but with teams of mules for the rocket engines. so you're left both deeply awed but at the same time, ready to smack your forehead until your head flies off.

 

[Shockman]

Unbiased. I would not say that because I have always been a fan of VP. The review was not as much a review of VP as it is, or how I think it should be, but based on how it was vs what it is now. There is just no arguing the point that function has been sacrificed and that in some ways it is not only a step backwards but a step off.

One could expect slow or non improvements, but who would have expected that the usefulness of VP would have taken such a giant step away from what made it so popular, which was simulating pinball on a windows PC.

The worse part about it is the brick wall that is up that has nothing to do with the program. One could understand the program being stale, but to read some say it is better, or that VP9 nudging is better than VP8 specifically, is sad. Laughable, if not for being so sad.

There is no point in arguing what direction a table would move on a nudge from a certain direction, or what reaction that would have on the ball. There is only one answer and it is the truth. How can you argue with someone that says that nudging should drive the ball in a certain direction. you have to have two points of view to argue. The truth and a lie are not two points of view. They are two concepts.

VP9 as a graphics show is better than VP8. I will grant you that. As a pinball simulation VP9 is not even close. In fact I don't know of one that is worse in some respects. Just a few adjustments and it could go from the bottom to alone at the top. If it is too hard to do, it is too hard to do. It can't get any marks because the difficulty in making these needed adjustments though.

VP8 on the other hand as well as the earlier versions have their own weaknesses, but does the best it can, without excuses, simulates nudging, and has far less instances that would have people thumping their heads. It takes imagination, but not suspension of the ground that is reality.

The additions VP9 does have make pinball simulation worse with only one exception and that is hardware like plungers. But I would rather have a real ball than a real plunger. The settings that add randomness because there are not enough range in the algorithms and the settings that add direction to the ball off the flippers like oblique correction is what VP has been reduced to. Nudging that is as screwed up in as may way that is humanly possible is what VP is reduced to.

10 years ago it was something to be excited about. In 2012 it does have us thumping our foreheads with our palms until it hurts. Not for how little it has went forward, but how much it has gone backwards.

Maybe someday VP will get back to what it was. A program that does the best it can to simulate pinball. It is in the wrong hands now though. Not only is it not getting done. The suggestion that it gets done is like hitting that brick wall, at best, and countered with it is better and VP8 was wrong at worse.

No one expects perfection. But VP9 is going out of it's way to promote imperfection and expand on that imperfection.

Buying a $4,000 cabinet might make VP look better, if you stand back, but does it come with a VP that has higher resolution to the flipper routine, flippers that react to the ball when the ball is rolling on a raised flipper, no randomness as an added value to the flippers and plunger?

I too have given VP every chance and tried to get back into it myself. I just don't have the imagination to adjust to this new gameplay.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

...Maybe someday VP will get back to what it was. A program that does the best it can to simulate pinball. It is in the wrong hands now though....

thing is, i'm not sure if any of that was ever really true.

randy davis, in his own words, was a guy fully occupied with his career who used some of his spare time to play around with some code routines that simulated PB objects. he released his efforts (around 2000?) and pretty quickly a whole bunch of people got all excited, jumped in and started making tables out of the existing simulator. it was the bill budge thing all over again, only for modern computers. then sellenoff or gerson agena or whoever decided to offshoot the MAME project for PB and VP functionality, and the whole project exploded exponentially.

unfortunately, randy davis was still in control in most ways, and it was a misfire from the start IMO. the guy was reclusive, not particularly dedicated to this side project, had limited time and energy to spend on it... yet at the same time insisted on maintaining full and absolute control. in so many ways it was the users, the pinMAME team, and the authors who made VP shine, something which was both awesome in its own right and all too enabling towards randy. (side note: "enabling" is usually not a good thing)

by contrast, imagine this: say a latter-day bill budge had come along in 2000. someone who loved PB, had time and dedication to give, and who wanted to get the simple things right before moving on to the other stuff. someone who could have said "okay, pro-pinball, i see what you did there, but watch this... i'm going to take the best of what you did and match it. because, you know, i'm a programmer with dedication and time." he could have taken the commercial route, the open-source route, or something in-between... in all cases there was opportunity for handsome payback.

can you possibly imagine how f--king awesome such a PB simulation project would have turned out today? especially given how much the VP community has been willing to bust ass to make everything else that matters work?

instead you have ONE legion of guys who bust their asses to keep improving the quality of the many, many simulated tables out there, and ANOTHER legion of guys who bust their asses to make these perfect homebrew full-screen cabinets. then when the virtual quarter is inserted and the game starts, everyone kind of mesmerizes themselves with the beauty of the bells and whistles and willfully ignores the fact that the physics are straight out of 1985.

hindsight is always immaculate, of course!

 

[Shockman]

I hear you. I did not say a man that does the best he can, but a program that does the best it can. Given the fact that if all of NASA, all of silicone valley, all of the programmers in the whole would stopped everything they are doing and worked on nothing but a pinball simulator for the next 10 years, we would get nothing more real, though we could no doubt say more realistic, VP also is what it is. Even if a simulator was so realistic that people thought it was real, it would be worthless until and unless someone created a table with it. A complete table, not an example or starter table.

With VP we know we have something that only with imagination is just enough realistic, but the value is in the enjoyment and fun as a computer game based on pinball. But basing something on pinball does have minimal requirements.

The problem with VP is not, as I said, the program, but the attitudes. It's the different worlds we live in. Some of these worlds don't jive.

To take away nudging and say the simulator is better is something that is not understandable in my world on any level. To then read that nudging in particular is better really throws me for a loop. More physics options rarely equates to better physics, and nothing in VP9.x shows it to be an exception. Randomness and forcing vectors least of all, and that is the lions share of the additions.

I can give many examples where none of this is hindsight. Many at the old VPF are gone, and none at the new VPF were received, but instead brought out discussions of these other worlds people live in. Worlds where gravity is a spring. Worlds where nudging is actually a steering of the ball and an added value to it.

Worlds that seem whack to me but are defended as if we were all there. For VP to advance it has to get input from the best ideas, from the one world that the most of us live in. Getting rid of the smartest people because they get in the way does no good for the community, and it does no good for the program.

Paul and destruk exist in my world but I do not exist in theirs. That seems to be necessary for them. It's not. I have never lied about anyone to put them down or to bolster my own position. Neither of them can say the same.

I only gave suggestions that would make VP better. Not as a programmer, but as a player. Not suggestions of things to do, but suggestions of fixing things that were done. I tried to draw them into my world though. I thought everyone lived in my world. They don't. The world that I live in has a VP dev group that is interested in graphics, and not simulation of the pinball action.

It's OK. I don't expect others to have as high of expectations as myself. But that is why VP9 gets the marks it does in this world.

 

[sleepy]

Playing the PINemHi_Leaderboard, but boy, am I getting tired of the "Three Card Monte" Flipper behavior. The frequent instance of slapping the ball with the Flipper when the ball is rolling across it at the Flipper mid point, usually an Up Flipper and release from a Hook Stop. I expect and anticipate the ball to move uptable, but No. Instead, the ball SHOOTS to the opposite Flipper and then drains the outhole with a fast fake/fast pass and drain.

And the ball reversing directions on an Up Flipper after coming to a stop, then rolling up the Up Flipper and drain.

It says to me that it *might* have something to do with a Ball Energy algorithm in the VP.exe code, like an Energy Tank for the Ball's VelX and VelY. I note that, no matter how slow the ball is moving on a Hook, I Often have to hold it at Full Rest for a Good 5 seconds or so to make a successful Left Orbit, Ramp, etc. shot, and the same goes for the right Flipper and ball.
Any energy left on that ball and it goes somewhere other than where I'm shooting for, as if there is an Energy Tank and Timer that is overactive.

And the ball floating over the UpFlipper is maybe for being a simple VelX and Y engine. That maybe with a high VelX the ball plot totally Ignores an UpFlipper's Y potential. There also seems to be a zone map around the Flippers.

I have also seen weird shit when I hit the ball with a Flipper tip and the ball then moves in a "Question Mark" or "hook cane pattern" like a walking stick with a hook while hitting absolutely Nothing in its way.


Yeah, the hope is now the Unity 3D engine being implemented into VP by louzou. Any thoughts on that project?

 

[Shockman]

My only thought, being unfamiliar with the unity 3d engine is one of hopefulness. Anyone that puts thought into this is on the right track. VP needs thought and it needs effort put into it.
Instead we have a proprietary build of VP that has replaced the whole ideal. It just don't work. It took no thought or effort to do this and that is what the value is. That being a still proprietary project and so many of us have no use for the proprietary elements. That coupled with the mindset that that no other build will be hosted at VPF and VPF throws it's self under the bus. This could make sense, but only with a legal obligation which would double underscore the proprietary element. As a community base, it does not fit.

UC did not gracefully implement these elements, but butchered VP to get them in. And there was no need, as this version of VP was never intended to be for the masses. That it would be declared as for the masses and working builds pre-doomed is VPF.org, not UC, not VP, but VPF.org. It is his right, and I can understand that he would need leverage to sell $4,000 worth of hardware, but as for the community, it has no place. It services Paul.

Is Unity 3D a physics/graphics engine, or one or the other? Research is in order.

 

[Shockman]

Wow. What an undertaking that must be. So we are talking about a port, not an extension?

 

[sleepy]

Yep. A port. Or I should say an Official update of the .exe which appears to be supported at the .org.

About the current matter of Flippers, is it just me or..?
I notice that when I try to hook a ball that is coming down the same side inlane, that if I just hold the Flipper in the Up position and wait, that the ball usually rolls up the Flipper and drains. It often doesn't even make it to the opposite (Up) Flipper no matter the apparent ball speed and energy.

But as the ball enters the inlane at the top of the inlane, it Seems Like if I tap the Flipper a couple of times while the ball is still in the inlane, that I can then hook the ball without it rolling off the Up Flipper. It seems like tapping the Flipper somehow slows down the ball's velocity, but that's way out there for a normal physics behavior. In the real world, Not without connecting with the ball and Flipper.

Has anyone else noticed this behavior, or...is it just me?

 

[Shockman]

Ball, flipper, nudging. It's all whack now. When the ball hits the flipper there is no logic in the least. The motion, the speed, the direction, the friction, nothing makes sense. You can not even drop the flipper and flip again to hit the ball. when it comes to the ball and flipper this is not anywhere near what it use to be. I would take a ball through the flipper problem any day. At least I can avoid that happening.

It needs work, just like the nudging does, but if you read from the admin and devs at VPF.org you would loose hope. They think VP9 is the bomb and VP8 shit.

Put some scatter angle to it. Add a bunch of oblique correction. That will straighten every thing out. LOL.

Destruk says VP8 should have a big red flasher when a flipper moves down faster than usual to avoid a ball going through it. VP9 should just apologize and shut it's self off when a ball is rolling on a flipper. It's the same fucking fix, the ball is not allowed contact with the flipper when the code has nothing for the situation. Except the 'fix is now out of the users control. You can not make the flipper hit the ball which is what VP9 need a way of doing. At least with 8 you had to make the ball and flipper miss each other which was not a problem when the flipper was moving quickly down anyway.

The higher resolution is nice, so is a the limited alpha transparency support, but as a pinball game these band-aid physics missed the cut.

 

[GSGregg]

I see that Shockman posted while I was hunting and pecking; I'll present this unchanged, anyway. Except for the obvious part.

.....is it just me or..?
I notice that when I try to hook a ball that is coming down the same side inlane, that if I just hold the Flipper in the Up position and wait, that the ball usually rolls up the Flipper and drains. It often doesn't even make it to the opposite (Up) Flipper no matter the apparent ball speed and energy.

Nope.....not just you. Although, my interpretation of the cause probably differs from everybody else's (for instance, I use a baseball batter's term, 'pull', for what others consider 'backhand'). The ball behavior is the same in the open playfield; that is, lateral movement is as if being absorbed by sand or a viscous fluid while vertical movement and acceleration remain apparently normal. A substantial increase in slope could produce such a transition(?) from VelX to VelY, but no such increase is evident. At least, not in the few VP9.1.x tables I've tried.

This overly-dampened(?) lateral movement is the main reason I haven't cozied up to VP9 yet; it takes me forever to stop anticipating normal movement and begin accepting what 'is'.....and if I break for a few minutes or a VP8 game, I have to re-acclimate all over again.

But as the ball enters the inlane at the top of the inlane, it Seems Like if I tap the Flipper a couple of times while the ball is still in the inlane, that I can then hook the ball without it rolling off the Up Flipper. It seems like tapping the Flipper somehow slows down the ball's velocity.....

Has anyone else noticed this behavior, or...is it just me?

I haven't noticed it, but it hasn't occurred to me to try it---so I will. Do you tap the same-side flipper, the opposite, or either one?

And the ball reversing directions on an Up Flipper after coming to a stop, then rolling up the Up Flipper and drain.

I haven't noticed this, either---you mean, the ball is rolling down the raised flipper, then reverses, rolling up and off the end? That IS weird.
Something I have seen several times: if a ball is rolling up toward the tip and I recognize that it won't stop in time, I quickly release and reapply the flipper---which should at least bump the ball over, or even shoot it upward---only to see the ball continue uninfluenced on its path over the end of the flipper. Instead of falling down, though, it actually clings to the lower half of the tip's circumference and looks like it's going to roll back along the bottom of the flipper. By this point, unfortunately, I've released the flipper in a vain attempt to try something else, so I never see how long this clinging might persist.

Regarding your having to hold a ball at full rest for several seconds before trying certain shots, I don't know enough about the Engine to visualize an Energy Tank or how it works, but I always wait at least one or two secs just in case there is some 'spin' left---there shouldn't be, of course---after the ball has come to rest.

Finally, I can't say I've seen 'questionmark' motion, but I have seen many tip-savable balls wind up in the drain. I thought Ball-Through-Flipper was in that other VP version!

I would take a ball through the flipper problem any day. At least I can avoid that happening.

Hear, hear!

 

[sleepy]

I think the "Scatter Angle" setting is why I can't make many of my shots anymore; shots that are simply on-line obvious easy shots.
It feels like a Randomizer at play, especially on a moving ball rolling across a Flipper. If so, Radomizers don't belong on a Flipper, especially when the ball is Stopped.

He GS!

A substantial increase in slope could produce such a transition(?) from VelX to VelY, but no such increase is evident.

I see the ball's vertical action behaving as "equal-opposite". Action-Reaction. Th ball goes uptable. The ball goes downtable, as if there is no dominant slope at all, except for when the ball stops near the top of the playfield. The ball often returns toward the bottom right back from where it came, as if it was a Fly-Back Paddle ball on a rubber string. Very strange when it does that quickly, and when it does that from a Wall near an outlane and straight back to the outlane. It often feels as if it is Arbitrarily Programmed to do so.

This overly-dampened(?) lateral movement is the main reason I haven't cozied up to VP9 yet; it takes me forever to stop anticipating normal movement and begin accepting what 'is'.....and if I break for a few minutes or a VP8 game, I have to re-acclimate all over again.

Yeah! I've been playing pinball since I was 3 and regularly since they legalized the game in L.A. back in '70/'71 and I tell myself
This Is a Simulation, and I still get messed up falling into my personal real world pinball instincts.
I actually still expect the ball to behave by the rules and the darned thing won't!

I tap the Flipper on the same side as the ball. Shouldn't be any strings attached to the ball without contact though, which is why I asked if it was just me.

I haven't noticed this, either---you mean, the ball is rolling down the raised flipper, then reverses, rolling up and off the end? That IS weird.

Yep. Exactly. That could be caused by a "Spin" plot on the ball...except Rubbers don't allow Spin. A spinning ball connecting with a Rubber would likely bounce (at least slightly) in some direction away from the Flipper, especially if the Spin is strong enough to move the ball In Reverse after stopping and then across an Up Flipper to the drain.

Regarding your having to hold a ball at full rest for several seconds before trying certain shots, I don't know enough about the Engine to visualize an Energy Tank or how it works

I don't even know if there IS an "Energy Tank" routine in VP. If there is, what it does is to store a portion of the ball's energy and then release the energy over time added to or against the ball's current direction, or to account for Spin, by using a Timer.

In musical FX boxes and synths, Energy Tanks hold a value of energy or store energy taken from the input signal, from a guitar line-in or mic input, and releases the energy over time or at a predefined instance or event, time, amplitude gate, etc., either to a power control pin on the amp in the circuit or as feedback to the FX amp stage input, or to an Oscillator for creating synth sounds. The simplest energy tank is a R/C circuit (resistor/capacitor "tank") while digital (DigitalSignalProcessing: DSP) circuits and/or software use digital data or some aspect of the data, often plotted and released to the digital stream from memory by a Timer after pre-processing for the specified FX.

 

[Shockman]

I have not encountered some of these issues. No doubt I would if I could, but I can't take too much of what I do encounter. I play VP8 tables for hours on end. I don't think I ever played a VP9 game out.

It's just too damn needy of basics.

No. Absolutely not. Scatter angle, if set to non zero, tells me the table is unplayable with or without it. Pop bumpers, or kickers, OK, slings, I believe they need this with their programmed limitations, but plungers and flippers, if you see non zero there, it's a wasted download.

This is just my opinion. Some people are easily amused. I use to think I was too. If VP8 was bare minimum as some would have you believe, VP9 should be expanding on it, not detracting from it.

At least it has it's PW dead-zone ironed out finally, I would presume. It seemed to be the driving force of many of the updates.

 

[Itchigo]

I do like vp8 also, but vp9 does have some tables that do play well, so a lot of what you guys are talking about may be able to be overcome by a skilled author. My Big Hit plays well IMO and it's vp9. By the way i'm not calling myself a skilled author, I'm just using it as an example, there others but not all by any stretch.

 

[Shockman]

I have not read anything on getting the flipper to hit the ball when it seems to be rolling on it when it is raised, which is just an illusion, it is not or the ball would drop when the flipper did and the flipper would slap it into play when raised. If there is a work around for that then it should be public.

I understand that scripting can help nudging, my example of that here at PN predates anything I have seen at VPF.

Being one to argue wrong points though, You are a skilled author, so you might as well admit it, and just come out and say so.

I'll try your Big Hit when I can. Paul is watching me closely, so I have to be careful with my alts. Or you could post it here. This is a pinball forum with a database too.

 

[Shockman]

I see the usual 15 'guests'

If I'm wrong about any of this then you are welcome to say so.

 

[GSGregg]

.....Radomizers don't belong on a Flipper, especially when the ball is Stopped.

If my sight, reflexes, attention-span or bowel comfort aren't dead-on, that's all the randomness I'll ever need. If an un-randomized device seems too easy.....well, that's why we developed the damned skills!

The simplest energy tank is a R/C circuit (resistor/capacitor "tank")

Ah. From my days dabbling in pre-integrated circuit radios & TVs, resistor/capacitor makes me think, 'Time Constant'. Somehow, I don't recall hearing it referred to as a 'tank'.

Scatter angle, if set to non zero, tells me the table is unplayable with or without it. Pop bumpers, or kickers, OK, slings, I believe they need this with their programmed limitations, but plungers and flippers, if you see non zero there, it's a wasted download.

.....a lot of what you guys are talking about may be able to be overcome by a skilled author.

If I had gotten into the Editor and what can be done with it, I might know what settings to tweak, but that would 'dis' the camaraderie of 'play it as you found it' in the High Score Topic and PINemHi; therefore I am content to swear and throw tantrums until I get the hang of it. A little.

And although VP9's "ball-steering" nudge is weird, it is a part of the game as downloaded and is therefore available to all. Comes in handy on those balls which would somehow evade the flipper tips.

Bottoms Up!

 

[Shockman]

We are going to be accused of beating a dead horse again, and in a way they will will be right. But this is a horse that is very much alive. Those that say it's a dead horse are saying, not us, that the concept of fixing these issues is dead. because this is actually not a horse, you know, it is VP's physics.

However I digressed on my digression to give a big thumbs up for the comment of developing skills. This does indeed need predictability, and ZERO, it could actually have some if it was negligible, meaning too small to actually make a difference except for the equivalent of a pinball landing on a pinball from that distance, or in other words something that would have random value. Not to hit a different slot or to even hit or miss a slot. THIS IS WHAT PINBALL IS. It is not random. If it was there would be no winners, no masters of the game. Could you imagine having an auto plunger in Mr. & Mrs. PAC-MAN? This is a skill shot that is among the hardest in execution, but can be mastered. What would you have an auto plunger do? Hit it? Miss it? or hit it sometimes and miss it sometimes? This is what I am talking about. It takes a learned practiced and precise pull on the plunger. Just the tiny bit of randomness, and it may as well be an auto plunger. You could say with truth, that it can still very, although there is no arguing that the same action is always going to have exactly the same reaction. If it does not land a bb on a pin head, it is not because a different reaction. It is because of factors outside of that, during the travel. Wear and tear aside.

But what are you going to do? put the randomness in anyway, to simulate those other factors. IT WON"T WORK, because randomness has nothing to do with those other factors. If you want to simulate a bind (side movement of the plunger) you are going to have to simulate that. But not in ANY random way. you are going to have to build a control for it. You are going to have to assign it. The skill is in avoiding that kind of thing, and to program out a skill factor in pinball makes it not pinball simulation at all.

A simple and small lane guide in a medium resolution simulation, rounded is going to have room for any number you want to put to it. Not just if you want to hit it square on top, on one of the corners, or catch the side of it. 10 pixels wide rounded adds a few more, speed and direction of the hit is taken into account, is it not? Well you should have thousands of possible vectors shooting out of that like rays. This is where you can add your randomness, but it would still be silly to do so. Computers are capable of using fairly large size numbers. This situation is limited by pixel size which does not exist in the real world, but that does not matter. The speed, weight, direction, are actually capable of using very large numbers indeed. The randomness would be put where it belongs. In the timing, concentration, and skill of the player. To use degrees, I don't know if VP is, is choosing a silly limit, there are many more directions from the center of a circle than 360.

If you saw VP's flippers using a high speed camera in slow motion you would see that they are for the most part not even there. Infinite is not a unlimited and unseen concept. We see the total of infinity all around us, in circles, in fractions, in fractals, but actually in everything. It exists as a whole with a beginning and an end. I'm not saying we can simulate that, I'm saying if you look at the real, and the simulation, in the simulation, almost nothing exists, and indeed almost nothing, relatively, is simulated. The bigger the numbers the better the simulation. VP does not need a flipper update (and this does not need to be visual) nearing infinite, but is needs way more than a few.

The human perception fortunately (in terms of being able to focus infinity to a usable range) is very limited. We can not see the full spectrum of anything. We can not hear the full spectrum, and we can not perceive the full range of anything. This is fortunate when it comes to simulations. It is proven that we can have a spectrum with the full range of our vision, we do not see the gaps, but the gaps actually make up more than what is in our range.

The point of this is a pinball simulation should seem realistic, because it can. People say Pro Pinball is nice in this respect. It uses no different concepts, there is no magic, It uses a broader range of numbers. On what? On DOS and Pentium for crying out loud.

Simulate with this broader range, and you will see that you don't have to give it randomness. It will draw all the randomness you can perceive from you, the user.

 

[StevOz]

And although VP9's "ball-steering" nudge is weird, it is a part of the game as downloaded and is therefore available to all. Comes in handy on those balls which would somehow evade the flipper tips.

WTF...it is now, try a VP8 table with VP8 nudge, really.

Make no mistake otherwise many improvements have been hacked in there the nudge is just a complete screw up.

Oh and bob's flipper setting shots table, nice, interesting, still if such a table existed for real, how many shots do you think could be made?

 

[sleepy]

Ah. From my days dabbling in pre-integrated circuit radios & TVs, resistor/capacitor makes me think, 'Time Constant'. Somehow, I don't recall hearing it referred to as a 'tank'.

Yes, time constant, or hold and release, attack, sustain, and/or decay.

I hear you Shockman! If the Plunger had a Shape to the tip, then that should account for difference in the plunge of the ball, within a wider Plunger lane.

EDIT: I just wrote this and now I'm not sure, but now I'm thinking the following is all about the Kickers:

And hey, what is with multiball collisions???
Balls sitting still in ejects/Kickers and a moving ball literally Fires off the still ball faster then Yagov in F-14 Tomcat.

Now I remember that balls bouncing off of balls was a workaround fix a loong time ago; for preventing multiballs from coexisting in the same space as each other, melting into one another, or two or more in the same Kicker getting lost. So the rebounding property (whatchamacallit?: Ball Elasticity I think) was added to the Ball Object)(?). Or maybe not.

In those days, the Ball had no collision property, or more likely, VP had no means programmed to prevent balls from overlapping each other, while the collision properties were determined by the other Objects, Walls, Bumpers, etc.

But now there is a collision property to the Ball Object, must be one, because multiballs collide and some authors have a 'Clack' sound play when that happens, so there is some kind of Ball collision now available. But the "rebounding balls" workaround is still in play, so moving balls still fly off of still balls sitting in Kickers faster than Yagov, but now we hear a 'Clack' when that happens.

If there is a working Ball Collision property, then why is overkill 'Default Ball Elasticity' still in use? Though I haven't noticed it in the editor (is it there?) I'm wondering if 'Ball Elasticity' is an Adjustable parameter and some authors just don't get it?

Or...is so-called 'Default Ball Elasticity' actually a Property of the Kicker with a ball in it, and not the ball itself?
I note that I've heard the ball collision 'Clack' sound from an open playfield collision between two balls, but there the crazy speed ball elasticity doesn't seem to be in use. Or it's Only when there is a ball collision with one in a Kicker.

 

[Shockman]

VP has always had ball to ball collisions. They did meld though. It use to also be that the ball would fall through a hole much smaller than the ball, or a gap in the joining of two walls for example. Some of those problems were fixed and others were not. For example you could avoid a ball falling through a gap by not having a gap. The ball through the flipper problem was not as big a problem as it sounds either. You could catch a ball with a flipper up and the flipper would then fall faster than the ball. Usually just to make it realistic. The slow return flippers put the spotlight on that problem. ball to ball collision sounds predate VP9.

The ball did not have a collision property per-say, in that you could code for it directly, but it was the ball that caused all the collisions, but ball to ball would always work on the fly. In fact it was very close to being stable. Usually when the balls merged together it was because one or both was encountering an anomaly like a gap, sitting on flippers, or fighting for the same spot. An early fix around VP5 had some work done on this that helped, but made the ball a bit jittery.

I don't have a problem with elasticity ball property, though of course a pinball in an of itself would have none. I don't even care about the scatter angle, oblique correction. I could make VP<9 work without it, though the same issue did exist out of the box. Maybe VP9 just won't work without it. It is a band-aid and not a feature. If someone put legs on the pinball so it could run around, that would be a feature. And it would also make as much sense.

I don't know about ball elasticity. I did not even know VP had that now. All the elements it collides with does, or should, so it could only be for ball to ball collisions, and if it was programmed to be different for two rolling balls than for one captured then it is human error. Incomplete or a bug. But it could also be design, but I only say that because it is VP9 we are talking about.

VP9 does have these bogus physics routines. There is no word for something that changes the law of physics, and there is no need, as nothing exists. The closest thing would be a paradox. The universe obliterating kind. So because VP has them it is up to table authors to ignore them. If they need them then it should be made as close as possible and just the smallest bit of it as possible used.

It is my opinion that VP tables are being made to play too fast. This has always been a problem with VP. The faster the ball is moving, the faster the flippers are moving, the more of a continuous and repetitive loop it becomes with less and less variation.

Cabinets should have seismographs for randomness. The friction of the ball on the table would be applied from it, and the data would come directly from the location. If you are going to pay $4,000 for a cabinet, what is another 4 to 7 K$. The motion boards they use might even work with large fractions, same concept. If the resolution is high enough and the dead-zone is low enough...

 

[sleepy]

Okay, then let me put it another way.
There is a ball in a Kicker, usually in an alcove lane, straight up from the Flippers. There is a ball sitting in the Kicker. Like Taxi with the lane eject on the right side.

You shoot a second ball from the left Flipper. It goes up the lane, hits the ball sitting in the Kicker, and Flies right back under excessive speed as if it had hit a high power Kickback mounted downwards.

That stuff ain't right unless there Is a Kickback there.
For sure, a ball shouldn't be behaving like a Kickback.

 

[Shockman]

It sounds like a setting needs to be adjusted.

I don't know the extent of the screwed up physics because I have encountered too much to subject myself to more.

I have played some fairly good VP9 tables though.

Strange behavior often is fixable with some work around. If worse comes to worse, you could activate the ball and throttle it in a case such as you mentioned. You know what the trigger is to activate the command, and you know the triggers the would deactivate it, though a global throttle may take care of it.

The absence of behavior is another story. Nudging, yes that is fixable to some degree with scripting, and it is a absent feature of VP, but the recoil timing for one thing is easily thrown off. This may have been improved upon though. I still think the idea of having to program a feature like that in a pinball simulator, especially one that already had it is insane, yet I can name one person that tells me it is logical, is against the idea of putting it in the core, thinks the way it should be is working by default only if you have the niche hardware and need to be programmed if you don't. It's hard to argue with someone that says their camp is too stupid (I don't want to put words in his mouth, so let me just say instead ... for whatever reason it's too much to ask of them ...) to fill their niche themselves, though, (but I still do, it's not really that hard). And it is pointless to argue with someone that can't understand that a routine attached to a key press will have no effect on their bobs (but I do that too, because though they can't understand it, it is a valid point). Nothing put into a key polling routine will effect the niche hardware, and that includes the original nudging code). Of course it's clear that the niche hardware stole the variables or something, but Jesus Christ, it's just C++ code, if it's too hard for them as they say, God bless them.

VP9 has come a ways since the first release of it though, in the visual display, but if that kind of work was put into physics, I would like it more even if it had mono-color wire-frame graphics. But that's just me. I think what make pinball great is the gameplay. I always liked a game with a theme I did not particularly fancy, like playboy, but played well, and cared not for the pretty games that I did not like the gameplay, like nascar.

It's would be nice to have both. But you can not prove a concept by making it look good, but instead only by making it work. I'm not saying VP don't work. Even I need a PB fix every once in a while. But I suppose everyone has all the VP tables they want. I do too. About 13.

 

[sleepy]

Since it only appears to happen with a ball in the Kicker, I checked the menu. No settings available.

So unless that behavior is controllable from the script, that should be fixed in the code someday. But when?

 

[Shockman]

Things don't get fixed in the code. If the VPF admin. and devs stay true to form, they will tell you that that is correct behavior, and VP8 was screwed up because a ball on ball contact should act like a kicker. And in VP9 it probably should. Why the hell not?