"I tried Future Pinball and it's clear that Visual Pinball is far much better, but just because Future Pinball is not as good as Visual Pinball doesn't mean its useless."
Wow. Classy. A post from an "expert" who clearly does NOT know the differences between both apps, and certainly doesn't know what FP-BAM is capable of... let alone the limitations VP has.
As Xenonph said.. they each have advantages and features the other does not.
Keep in mind... my perspective is more focused on new / original tables... not the same old pinmame rom based tables we keep seeing over and over again on VP.
(to be up front... FP's "editor" interface is old as poop... but the other features, updates and tools from BAM are excellent for creators!)
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"I did find that Future Pinball you can import into Blender 2.79 with the addon and turn your ramps into .obj and import into Visual Pinball. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the Future Pinball games made for Visual Pinball with upgrades and stuff."
FP tables have been converted to VP for many years. Nothing new there (and I helped with some conversions, years ago, as a favor). Not many are done for good reason.
Most VP creators don't make original romless tables, as they either don't know how to do so, or aren't willing to put more work into a quality original table (which requires everything to be made from scratch).
This is why VP has so many rom based tables or reskins, because a pinmame / rom based table is a fraction of work in comparison. Take away pinmame (which is not part of VPX), and most VP tables wouldn't exist like they do today.
Luckily though this has been changing more on VP, as there have been some stellar original tables coming out on VP!
There are no significant visual "upgrades" VP offers over FP-BAM, except for refraction in plastics, and VLM (mainly a benefit for baked lighting, which VP requires since it has no realtime dynamic lighting like FP-BAM has).
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"Visual Pinball has much better physics even with Bam"
This is no longer true.
VP's own physics are being bypassed by most VP creators. That is why they add nFozzy physics to newer VP tables. This is not something that just automatically works on all tables. It needs to be manually added to each table, and the table needs to be crafted to support it correctly. It will vary how good it plays depending on the person who added it.
FP-BAM now does the same with FizX physics (which uses similar techniques as nFozzy physics). We need to add FizX physics to each FP table in the same way as you need to on VP. It will vary how good it plays depending on the person who added it as well. Yes, after 19 years, the days of bad FP physics are a thing of the past.
Yes, nFozzy physics is still "the best", but the difference compared to FP FizX is not as dramatic as it was with old FP physics. (for many people)
VP's static physics is also a limitation, and restricts it in some ways. I see the many frustrations that come from talented VP creators in this area, and the workarounds they have to do to make some things work. (which are VERY easy to do on FP-BAM)
FP-BAM has dynamic physics and dynamic colliders which is much more flexible. Combine this with FP-BAM's extremely powerful mini-playfield tool, and you can do things you could only dream of in VP.
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"has much better platforms and support and updates."
- despite being open sourced for many years... VP still lacks MANY features that FP has, and some modern features thanks to the many BAM updates over the years (for creators especially). Both apps have "old" editors, but at least VP's editor gets updated. BAM's in-game tools are awesome for creators
- the only external app VP makes use of that FP doesn't is pinmame (but FP "can" use it). DOF, PUP, FlexDMD, DMDext, etc can all be used with FP now... and lots of tables use DOF and PUP extensively
- multiple platform support (android, linux, mac, etc) is only as good as the person who keeps it maintained with "every" VP update and keeping it 100% compatible (something VP itself doesn't even do). Sooner or later that won't last. Also... both FP and VP use vbs... so they are both deprecated in future Windows versions anyway (and will require installing vbs support)
- yes FP being closed source is limiting for the editor, but all these years later its still ahead of VP in many other ways, especially with BAM's tools
- FP being 32 bit is not a limitation, as it is MUCH more efficient at handling textures and memory, as my recent testing has shown.
Future Pinball being 32 bit is NOT a limitation FP is a 32 bit app. A 32 bit app is limited to being able to access 4 GB of system ram max. Some claim FP being 32 bit is a big a limiting factor. With VP, yes that may be the case for some newer VP tables (as it typically needed to load all...
pinballnirvana.com
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"Visual Pinball just looks better"
I certainly don't agree there if we are talking about what each app is capable of on their own (with or without Blender).
- VP is VERY limited for lighting. VP only has texture based lighting. No realtime dynamic lighting (like most games have had for 15+ years now).
- without Blender, VP tables look mostly the same as they did back in 2015 (when VPX came out)
- the better-looking VP tables "require" Blender to pre-render faked lighting to textures (using the Blender Toolkit). The reflections on table items are also created in Blender. This requires extensive Blender knowledge and very few VP creators can do it. There is a reason why it's mostly VPW tables that look this good, as most the (few) Blender experts are there. Those tables are the result of multiple people's (specific) knowledge and their combined work... not the result of one person simply making something only using VPX
- textured lighting / reflections is limiting, as it means it only looks "correct" from one static camera view. As soon as you move the camera or play in VR (and move your head constantly), then the effect is broken, and the faked lighting / reflections looks more like stickers, and can even look bad
- VP needs to use A LOT of ram to make this happen, as it needs lots of textures for faked lighting, and 100's of models to work with them
- the two major visual benefits VPX (10.8) has over FP-BAM is refracted plastics, and VLM
- FP-BAM has realtime dynamic per-pixel lighting and shaders. When used correctly (as I've shown many times now), you can get lighting results that are not possible on VP and can look amazing. No blender needed.
- this allows for every flasher, spotlight, beacon, and any other bulb / GI to have "real" lighting in 3D space that can be changed and moved at anytime while properly affecting all items around them, including normal maps. This is something that VP is simply not capable of doing, and it really shows in VR!
- FP-BAM generates shadowmap and light maps internally. No other apps are needed.
- FP-BAM automatically makes ray cast ball shadows for each light
- FP-BAM also supports FBX / OBJ "completely" (OBJ support is limited on VP, and no support for FBX on VP). This includes full support for rigged models and animation. On VP you would need to use 100's of models and lots of memory to try to mimic what FP-BAM does with one model and a small amount of ram
- just like you see on VP BTK (and VPW) tables, you can also use Blender to prebake ray traced lighting to textures on FP-BAM as well (though Niwak's excellent Blender Toolkit makes this much easier on VP)
- combine this with FP's realtime dynamic lighting, and you can get lighting not seen on VP or even on FX. You can see some of that on my (wip) MOTU CE. Nothing else looks like this table in VR (it really is stunning) and it looks the same and "correct" in any 2D static or moving camera view.
Seriously impressive. I thought all the built in game objects of the same type shared textures. Did you have to put in custom models for each? Most FP's models are still loaded from either a common library, or were added to the table in model manager. Every model can use a unique texture with...
pinballnirvana.com
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"Hey I know some like Future Pinball and this is like the fight between what's better Xbox or Playstation, I get it, so I did not write this to discourage Future Pinball games."
The only ones who "fight" between each app are extreme fanboys, or those with no open mind, or those who don't know the actual capabilities and limitations of each app.
Some of us have actually created content of quality on both platforms, and many of us still help each other out with projects on each app. BOTH apps and the content created for it have benefitted from those who share and support each other.
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"Some were saying that VPE unity pinball was the future but I don't see too much happening with it because its bloat ware and yes I have 15 years experience working at a company that works with software."
Given that VP has had 24 years of development, and is still lacking many things, has backwards compatibility issues, can have issues with each new update... I think we can cut freezy some slack with VPE development time.
The initial idea to maintain VP compatibility (and with static physics) was holding VPE's potential back. Luckily freezy has decided to move away from that and go back and redo it to focus on using VPE's full potential with dynamic physics (something FP-BAM enjoys today). After a VP table is imported to VPE, it will no longer have anything left of VP... so it's better to not be restricted by it.
He's still actively developing it... but you know... people who put the work into quality apps and quality tables... well they also have a job, family, and life to live. The hobby comes after all that when time allows.
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Comparing how "this table on VP" looks compared to "that table on FP" is silly, as it can come down to completely different people and skillsets (and time) involved in the creation of each (and how old an FP table can be that still works). They are not both made by the same people.
Heck, the FP version of Jaws BBE and the older FP MOTU looks WAY better than the VP versions (I helped with the VP conversions). No blender involved on each. Jaws BBE as a "game" is WAY better than any other version, as it has way more content, features, modes, much better lighting, shadows, etc.
Should I compare my new FP MOTU CE (that has both FP's lighting and Blender pre-rendered ray traced lighting) to the VP MOTU with no Blender? The VP version can't compare, let alone the massive differences in the games themselves.
Doing that would be silly. Just as it would be silly to compare a new VPX Blender Tool Kit table to an older FP table.
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"Some of you might say that it doesn't matter my opinion but I work with software and just know that the best software gives you best results"
Oh the many times over the years I've heard from "experts" in this hobby, because "they work in software". (this is hobbyist software, not a commercial app). Time and time again, the experts have been proven wrong about what FP-BAM could do.
I do my talking with what I create and show... and I've done so on both apps. I moved AWAY from creating on VP because of it's limitations. FP-BAM allows me to do what I want and get the results I want. If VP could do that, I wouldn't be making stuff on FP. I'll use the best tool for the job for what "I" want to create... and today (for me) that is not VP. for others, what they want to create is fine on VP. Neither is right or wrong.
If I were to make something like MOTU CE, RetroFlair 2, Silent Hill on VPX... they wouldn't (and couldn't) be the same games. I would have to remove features and content and make lots of compromises. FP-BAM makes those tables possible... today.... and they are made by "one" person... not a team of Blender experts, or engineers. My results speak for themselves.
It's fine to have a preference... but as to what FP-BAM is capable of... I can tell you confidently, you are mistaken.
Get or use each app for what it brings to the table. There is no "only VP or "only FP". Anyone who thinks like that is missing out on some great games! The end result made from each is amazing content from talented creators that just want to create and share their work proudly... and do so respectfully... without needing to deal with fanboy wars.
Yes I understand I have a relative who hates Windows 10 and still uses Windows 7. I'm not saying you should not use it if you are comfortable with Future Pinball. I tried it and feel the same way you do but I feel more comfortable with Visual Pinball.
but if there was a test done like loading time and a real comparison video sort of like comparing two phones. I post a video just for example. Again I don't try to discourage using Future Pinball I even wrote above that it's useful for importing into Blender. I think it would be entertaining to see the same game played and compared on both Future and Visual as the two phones for comparison.
Well I worked in IT tech support for Canadian company you might beat me at coding as all I did was C++, Java, C# and HTML with very little Python. I mainly worked in IT and Software Hardware tests formats and iso. I didn't write it for bragging rights or anything just writing is all.
