VPX Support File Visual Pinball X.7 (standalone EXE) latest pre-release

[Isaac Sauvage]

Isaac Sauvage submitted a new resource:

Visual Pinball X.7 (Standalone EXE) - New interface & features

AUTHORS:
@toxie, @fuzzel, @djrobx, @jsm174, @horseyhorsey, @nkissebe, @freezy, @cschmidtpxc, @destruk et al.

CONTENTS:
@jpsalas' Arcade Physics v3.01 system, nudge & calibration table, and latest VP / VPM scripts.

NOTES:
- This link will take you to the latest pre-release version of VP (currently v10.7.0-270-fb735a4 as of Aug 8th, 2021).
- Some of the latest...

Read more about this resource...

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

I hadn't updated my VPX for quite awhile, and it's great to see the new interface system!

@toxie,
Thanks for all yours' and the team's work on this project through the years.

 

[Paolo]

New interface & features

then a new version of vpx?...nice!

about the intervention of the great master Jpsalas in terms of physics, a few months ago, I had asked him, if it was possible according to his experience on the subject, since he created the Physics v3.0 for vpx, to try to create a way or a theory for fp ...... I explained to him how the fp physics works also through bam(xml) ..... but unfortunately he could not do anything, because the fp physics engine (Newton engine) is not one of the best.

 

[TerryRed]

then a new version of vpx?...nice!

about the intervention of the great master Jpsalas in terms of physics, a few months ago, I had asked him, if it was possible according to his experience on the subject, since he created the Physics v3.0 for vpx, to try to create a way or a theory for fp ...... I explained to him how the fp physics works also through bam(xml) ..... but unfortunately he could not do anything, because the fp physics engine (Newton engine) is not one of the best.

VPX gets new updates about once a year or so (10.5, 10.6, 10.7).

JP is correct that Newton is the limiting factor.... BUT... BAM has opened up FP physics completely. So a really smart person can make vast improvements compared to what was possible before.... just like what was needed for VPX physics to improve.

Some of the methods used for improving physics on VPX can be done in a similar manner on FP-BAM (far beyond the old xml settings)... within the limitations we still have I'm sure.

Many VPX guys really don't understand the extent of what BAM is capable of "today", as many think its just headtracking and other stuff.... but they don't realize that BAM has opened up FP and added so much to FP that authors can use far beyond what FP could do before and many modern things that VP can't do (the main reason I create on FP instead of VPX).

The thing is... you need someone who understand today's BAM and FP really well and also understands the methods used for VPX to try to adapt them... but this takes a lot of time to create and test, test, test.... and someone who has the "desire" to do so.

Everyone enjoys what they work on and know very well. Its why SLAM still works on FP... and why JP still works on VP, etc.


That said... yes, great work from Toxie and Fuzzel and any other VPX devs. The community is always thankful for time sacrificed to try to improve and add to VP.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

about the intervention of the great master Jpsalas in terms of physics, a few months ago, I had asked him, if it was possible according to his experience on the subject, since he created the Physics v3.0 for vpx, to try to create a way or a theory for fp ...... I explained to him how the fp physics works also through bam(xml) ..... but unfortunately he could not do anything, because the fp physics engine (Newton engine) is not one of the best.

Well, is there anything VPX flippers can do that you think FP-BAM's can't?

I know VPX flippers visually behave more realistically, but in terms of pure flipper-ball behavior, it seems very close at this point.

In terms of advanced player tricks, I'm not sure VPX ever was able to simulate things like drop-catches and "hot catches." I'm not sure even the ProPinball series was able to simulate that stuff.

 

[TerryRed]

I'm not a physics "expert" at all... but I can tell you that VPX has more accurate flipper physics and ball behavior than FP does. Shiva flippers are definitely getting closer.

I think all FP solutions still shoot a little wide towards the tip of the flipper... but I'm not as up to date on trying the latest and greatest.

 

[GeorgeH]

What gets me is that the settings in an XML might work on one table but they need to be changed on another table. There are many parameters in the XML which are difficult to understand. Then you combine all that with having to adjust the strength of all the table objects and the situation becomes even more complex. Then ramps often have defects that dramatically affect the performance also and the defects look like there is a physics problem. That is the stuff that drives me crazy about physics.

 

[TerryRed]

This is something the VP guys and the devs have always put a lot of time into for VPX. That has always been the priority, so they are used to it... and they have much more freedom than what we get with FP.

Every VPX table that plays amazing gets there through lots of pain and suffering... but they get to a point where its more consistent and easier to add to new tables.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Every VPX table that plays amazing gets there through lots of pain and suffering... but they get to a point where its more consistent and easier to add to new tables.

Interesting.
And even... funny?

Like, not so long ago I barely remembered what "Eff-Pee" was. Like, perhaps something from a long-dead past in the pin-sim scene?

If you'd asked me at the time, I might just have bloviated like so. That's because to me, FP was the archeological remnant of someone who once tried to heist VP7 from the proper artist. In other words, FP was... dead... kerflumpt... kerflizzled... quackdoodled... Ignatioe P. Mcgullicutied. I.e. something not to be taken seriously.

Not sure *quite* how much sense that all makes, but I must say-- I appreciate how you all proved that ignorance faulty. In fact, "FP" is a wonderful, dynamic project from everything Rafal, Bob, Terry & others have shown me. In fact, it's an amazing project.

 

[TerryRed]

That's the thing. I only dabbled in VP and FP back in around 2008'ish. FP back then was way more interesting to me despite VP having my favorite real pinball tables on it. So I don't know much of the history of FP and VP as I wasn't around the communities back then.

Then didn't touch virtual pinball at all until around 2014. Got heavily into FP... then after my cabinet was built, got into VPX... and was glad I did. VP has come a LONG way.

While the lighting is still very much static and not dynamic (which for FP-BAM is a big thing for me)... the tables and artistry from some VPX authors and what they do in Blender to fake lighting and rendering (through baked-in textures) on VPX is amazingly done... lots and lots of work. Many real tables I never would have known about if it wasn't for VPX.

In the mean time.... Toxie and Fuzzel and team work away on VPX more and more....and do some great stuff. I just wish VP had the very things I like about FP-BAM... then I would build tables on it. That's where VPE will fill that gap one day I think.

 

[Paolo]

Well, is there anything VPX flippers can do that you think FP-BAM's can't?

What do you mean by VPX flippers?
I am, referring to physics, because this is what affects ,positively or negatively the gameplay of a table.
If you ask me that a vpx table plays better in terms of physics, I tell you that for me it does.

But the X factor is always.... there, the physics engine of fp is not optimal, at least like that of vpx, these are also confirmed by Jpsalas
for years we played football, inside a pinball fp, until the arrival of bam, and his wonders.

Now, again thanks to bam, we can improve the physics, thanks also to the dynamic fins, but it is not enough we need something extraordinary, at least as it happens for vp.

 

[Paolo]

The thing is... you need someone who understand today's BAM and FP really well and also understands the methods used for VPX to try to adapt them... but this takes a lot of time to create and test, test, test.... and someone who has the "desire" to do so.

This is exactly what I asked Jpsalas some time ago......JP being a vpx man, he does not know bam very well but he knows what bam is capable of (dynamic fins), but he knows an xml very well, he knows how it works, in fact I had proposed him to make a comparison, and try to set via xml, the configurations of vpx and try to adapt them for fp..........here is his answer to me.

The physics of FP are not optimal because of the Newton engine, which was not made for a ball simulation, but for other kind of action games. So the engine was not the best one for a pinball, but maybe it was the only one available at that time which Chris could use. When I was looking at the xml file, I remember I looked at the original that Chris made, and it was all a trial and error, as you said. We could change the physics of the objects, but slingshots and bumpers were not possible to change, and they use to send the ball at very odd angles. I think the best values were for that FP 2.6, which included an updated version of this xml. At that time there was not BAM, so they had to put back the xml in the exe file.


The physics in VPX were made for a pinball table, and they are built inn in VPX, it is not an external engine like Newton. So even if you take the values from VPX and change the xml file with those values, it won't work, as the Newton engine expects other values, so the tables may be unplayable. Anyway, VPX has many more parameters than the ones in the xml file. So for FP I should use the xml file from FP 2.6 and the latest BAM using the dynamic flippers. Still the flippers lack the possibility to do backhands, as they are too weak at the base of the flippers. This is better in VPX, but you have to tune them up quite well, otherwise they play horrible too

. Also VPX flipper physics aren't perfect as many things can't be done at the same time, for ex. if you fine tune the flippers to make a tip ball pass, then they will feel too slow in normal use. So all is a compromise.

Speaking about VPX physics, I feel they were made not for a pinball simulation, but for a snooker game

It has a lot of ball spin and friction, very typical of a snooker game

And in FP the ball feels it is rolling on ice. So to me both VPX and FP aren't perfect, but they both have their weakness and strengths.


I know that many people are waiting to see how the Unity VPE will be

 

[Paolo]

What gets me is that the settings in an XML might work on one table but they need to be changed on another table. There are many parameters in the XML which are difficult to understand. Then you combine all that with having to adjust the strength of all the table objects and the situation becomes even more complex. Then ramps often have defects that dramatically affect the performance also and the defects look like there is a physics problem. That is the stuff that drives me crazy about physics.

I totally agree with you, that's what I think too, after all the time I spent to better understand xml, to improve physics ..... but dear Giorgio, just an xml is not enough,also because you have to change every time for another table, especially if the table is more complex (ramps ... etc..etc) is precisely this because I say to find a way, or a physics that it is optimal for all tables, and also for this I asked Jpsalas ..... do you believe that in vpx, they do miracles for each table? like us? that you go crazy looking for optimal physics for each table ? ... I don't think so......

 

[Paolo]

In fact, "FP" is a wonderful, dynamic project from everything Rafal, Bob, Terry & others have shown me. In fact, it's an amazing project.

Just think about the Mini-playfield feature, and I've told you everything.....I would like to see more and other tables, which use the MP, for what it was designed for, that is to create mini-playfields (as in krull,or nes,or time-machine, so to speak) and not just to make toys move.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

What do you mean by VPX flippers?
I am, referring to physics, because this is what affects ,positively or negatively the gameplay of a table.
If you ask me that a vpx table plays better in terms of physics, I tell you that for me it does.

But the X factor is always.... there, the physics engine of fp is not optimal, at least like that of vpx, these are also confirmed by Jpsalas
for years we played football, inside a pinball fp, until the arrival of bam, and his wonders.

Now, again thanks to bam, we can improve the physics, thanks also to the dynamic fins, but it is not enough we need something extraordinary, at least as it happens for vp.

Yes, I was referring to VPX flipper physics.

Do you feel they're still far better than FP-BAM flipper physics when you add in stuff like Dynamic Flippers and Shiva Flippers?

Or do you think VPX flipper physics are still far head of FP-BAM's, even with those advances?

 

[Paolo]

Do you feel they're still far better than FP-BAM flipper physics when you add in stuff like Dynamic Flippers and Shiva Flippers?

For me if we talk about physics, we have to talk about many factors, not just fins...like Dynamic Flippers or Shiva Flippers.
I state that I do not know the Shiva Flippers.

when i play on a vpx table, i don't just watch for example, how the fins work ..... i watch all the gameplay
for me a vpx table, in terms of physics, plays a little better than fp ...... I'm not saying fp / bam, and I'll explain why

I in my tables, I have always left the original physics of fp, that is, without using any kind of physics through XML, so with the use of bam, ok you understand me up to here .....? right.

continue, I have only inserted for a few years until now only the dynamic flipper mode,to improve the gameplay of my tables, I have always asked @GeorgeH for help as the most more practical in physics via XML.

when I started to take the path of XML on my own, then everything became clear, at least for me ..... for me, just a Dynamic Flippers or Shiva Flippers, or the system that uses vpx for fins, is not enough, to have optimal gameplay, but it is necessary to have optimal physics
I don't know how the vpx physics works, but I know how the fp one works, and the fp one, it's not one of the best, just because it uses an obsolete physics engine, because it has never been updated, by who could.

now the physics of vpx, works better than fp, so you have optimal gameplay on vpx tables ....... now at this point we are going to fp / bam.....the physics of fp, has been improved thanks to bam, with the use of XML, which among other things, I was the first to use directly on the script, before, everyone used the external xml file ..... thanks to my question to Raf, he explained to me that it was possible to put the content of the xml directly on the script, Raf, I had conceived this possibility a long time before, but nobody used it, I was the first.

so to conclude, and not to write miles of writing, as I told you Here,it is not enough for an FP / BAM table, the dynamic flippers, by shiva or others, or knowing the various parameters of XML, to configure them at best, a difficult job even for an expert like Giorgio, but also knowing how to build a table, and especially the physics engine of fp, does not allow you to have an optimal gameplay, at least like that of vpx ..so my question .... Bam, could you modify the graphics engine of Fp ..... ?
I don't know, but I want to dream in tecnicolor.

Or do you think VPX flipper physics are still far head of FP-BAM's, even with those advances?

because as I have been able to personally ascertain, despite acting on XML, or adding dynamic pinball machines, like @GeorgeH , or me or 2 or 3 others we do, of which many parameters are still a mystery, if I then add that the physics engine of fp doesn't help us, I don't get gameplay like in VPX.

 

[GeorgeH]

I asked Rav a long time if he could update the physics Newton engine because there are newer versions. He told me he tried newer versions but they didn't improve anything. I seem to remember that he said that at least some of the new features can't be used on FP.

 

[Paolo]

I asked Rav a long time if he could update the physics Newton engine because there are newer versions. He told me he tried newer versions but they didn't improve anything. I seem to remember that he said that at least some of the new features can't be used on FP

Ahhhhhh.......what sad news!!!
Now I understand why Fp was abandoned by creator Chris.
Never mind, luckily we have Bam, who has solved many bugs in Fp, too bad for the physics engine.....But I wonder is it possible to replace it with another one

 

[TerryRed]

Ahhhhhh.......what sad news!!!
Now I understand why Fp was abandoned by creator Chris.
Never mind, luckily we have Bam, who has solved many bugs in Fp, too bad for the physics engine.....But I wonder is it possible to replace it with another one

That would require making a completely new program most likely. That simply would not be worth it, and I would rather see that level of development and time invested into VPE instead (ravarcade is also a contributor for VPE development). Then we would end up with a completely modern player, editor and tools, better physics, and much nicer modern day graphics and VR. One day it will happen.

 

[Paolo]

and I would rather see that level of development and time invested into VPE instead (ravarcade is also a contributor for VPE development).

What???
Terry,it's the second time I've seen you talk about VPE, but what it is? a new FP? that also Rafal is involved

 

[TerryRed]

What???
Terry,it's the second time I've seen you talk about VPE, but what it is? a new FP? that also Rafal is involved

It's an all new Visual Pinball based on Unity.

The intent is for it to be able to import VPX tables (and most likely FP tables (not completely)... and then a table author will need to adapt the script for C+ (not vbs), and the table for the new editor and features.

Its still a very long way off from being released... but you can see it's progress here:

https://vpuniverse.com/forums/topic/5362-wip-visual-pinball-in-unity-2021-edition/

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Ooh, ooh... so maybe one day we'll be able to do real drop-catches and hot-catches?!

​

Heh, sorry.
But yeah-- still blows my mind that ProPinball is just about the best pin-physics system so far invented, yet dates from... 20+ yrs ago, is it? Like... time for good ol' topper, eh? (remember "Topper" from the Dilbert strips)

But in a larger (Ike is an idiot) sense, seeing the main forks of the VP project eventually getting back together would be... wait, UNITY?

That bloated piece of...? THAT steaming load? Like, *that* Unity...?
Holy-wankerfluffle, Terry... that shit is the slowest, non-behaving pile of *recycling* I've ever run... at least on the various platforms I've tested / tried.

$%@#!&*^ Lord Lucifer (mightiest of devils) help us all if the next iteration of VP-FP-BAM is in doggone "Unity." This is all just a silly prank, right?
Right...??

 

[TerryRed]

Please tell me you are not confusing VPE with Unit3D Pinball as seen here?

The Virtual Pinball Forums

Page 1 of 15 - Unit3D Pinball Beta is OUT! - posted in Unit3D News: Hi pinball fans. This is a really bad news for everyone who expected UP3D to be a Vaporware: BETA IS OUT! We invented a new kind of software: a Waitware . We are really proud to release this new version, coming with a lot...

www.vpforums.org

...as that project is long dead and old, and was based on using the FP editor, mixed with Unity and other craziness.


No, VPE is NOT that (many people first thought it was when they see Unity).


Did you actually "read" the entire post at the link I posted? This is NOT... I repeat NOT using anything from VP or FP except for some of VPX's physics (that may even change). They will have an import tool for converting the VPX and FP tables as much as possible (as seen in the demo videos), but after that... none of the legacy VP code / tools / assets are used. It's all going to be a completely modern editor and toolset (with VPinMAME integrated, etc). 64 bit application now means no memory restrictions. Pretty much everything is all new and native to the new versions of Unity which is VERY capable of efficient "modern" visuals like on any typical AAA PC game.... WAY beyond what VPX and FP will ever do.

It will have a modern Editor for table authors. For everyone else however it will use a simple separate player app (that is standalone, like a typical PC game) used load and play tables. Removing the need for "editors" to simply "play" tables.

VPE in Unity would be intended for fairly modern hardware (like the GTX 1xxx series) to properly make use of it. So if someone is running a 10 year old PC, and expects it to run a "new" Unity based app (or one using Unreal Engine 5, etc)... then that person needs to be a bit more realistic with their expectations. We aren't talking Cyberpunk here, though...lol.

Seriously... as an author who knows how to create on both VP and FP-BAM and as a PC gamer / graphics guy... VPE is by far the best direction we need to goto. Even ravarcade agrees with this.

I personally can't wait until VPE is released and hopefully is able to offer the same kind of toolset I enjoy on FP-BAM (could be years to get there though). It certainly has the ability to do so... unlike VPX. RetroFlair 2 and Silent Hill would look insane and I could do things WAY beyond what I can now.

Oh, and it's open sourced, which means it won't be a cut off by someone who's "had enough" from some kind of drama. It can continue and improve. It's many great devs involved...and freezy knows his stuff. Lots of talent are behind this.

 

[Paolo]

The intent is for it to be able to import VPX tables (and most likely FP tables (not completely)

I'm a little perplexed.......mmmmm.....we'll see!!!

$%@#!&*^

Nik....what language are you writing in above?

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

@TerryRed,
TBH, I'm an enormous scaredy-cat sometimes, but yeah, THAT helps.