VPF looks good, but...

[Isaac Sauvage]

it's been a while for me, but after a curious visit just now the place (vpf.org) looks very good. a super-dedicated site owner and much of the old VPF active userbase seems to have found the new place.

but why are new releases not being copied to PN?

i mean, PN has been the backbone of the scene for ages, always serving as the place where people know there will be a backup no matter what might happen to the main site. which is why i don't get this 'putting all the eggs into one basket' approach after years of being careful to do otherwise. but maybe i'm missing a key issue here...

if the reason is because people like myself and/or phoenix at PN have challenged the new ownership too much in the past year then i'm certainly willing to step aside and retire. what matters here is VP, and i have other places to go anyway if need be.

i hope someone is willing to clear this up, though, because it's never good when one site is carrying the load for an entire scene IMO.

 

[jpsalas]

I always upload my tables here first, and all my tables are here. I think Ripley's table for VP9 was the first one that I upload it first to another site, and this was because PN was unavailable yesterday and I wanted to release the table for Halloween. I do not always make a release thread, since the front page shows what's new, and sometimes I feel it is not needed with a release thread, only when there are bugs or I get some questions.

I really like PN and how easy is to download the tables without restrictions. I'm not the kind of person who likes to talk or chat a lot. I'm not very interested in politics or sports (read football :) ) so I actually have not much to talk about :)

Well, I don't know if this cleared anything, just my two cents.

Greetings
Juan Pablo

 

[TheMcD]

From what I can guess, 'tis because mankind is generally lazy. I agree that a backup here would be for the best, but damn me if I was supposed to do it.

I doubt too many people would be willing to do it - make that pretty much none.

The McD

 

[bob]

There's little to no interest here Nic. I decided to not upload any of my VP9 table updates here for that reason AND to avoid confusion with VP8 versions. I'd say there are more confused members at VPF.org than members who actually know how to setup and use all of the different aspects of Visual Pinball and the different formats of table releases and the ATI graphic card problems.... It really is a mess IMO.

 

[mrschultz]

Maybe it's because PN isn't mentioned at all on that site? There's a long banner of recommended sites along the bottom but no PN.

When PN was down I went over there to see if there was any news but couldn't find any mention of it, when they are down there's plenty of talk about it here....

 

[bob]

Maybe it's because PN isn't mentioned at all on that site? There's a long banner of recommended sites along the bottom but no PN.

When PN was down I went over there to see if there was any news but couldn't find any mention of it, when they are down there's plenty of talk about it here....

There was a thread there....

http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=3839&hl=

I have a link to PN in my signature at VPF.org (just like the one in my sig here) and I think StevOz does also. You can't blame Noah for not advertising PN at the bottom of his homepage, since he doesn't agree with this type of free speech moderation, but trust me, almost everyone knows of this place and he doesn't censor it from posts like the old VPF did with VPFF.

 

[Rick2007]

I'd say there are more confused members at VPF.org than members who actually know how to setup and use all of the different aspects of Visual Pinball and the different formats of table releases and the ATI graphic card problems.... It really is a mess IMO.

Bob, If VPF.ORG is a mess it is probably because The NEW VPF.ORG needs
help from Guys like you that have Years of VP knowledge to
offer help to the VP Community. I speak from experience,,,,
I would not have had the fun of creating a table if You had
not helped me when I needed it. Please consider helping
the "Next Newbies."

Rick

 

[bob]

Bob, If VPF.ORG is a mess it is probably because The NEW VPF.ORG needs
help from Guys like you that have Years of VP knowledge to
offer help to the VP Community. I speak from experience,,,,
I would not have had the fun of creating a table if You had
not helped me when I needed it. Please consider helping
the "Next Newbies."

Rick

It's a lot deeper than that Rick, I can't help people with stuff that I'm not also familiar with.... I didn't mean VPF.org was a mess, it's actually a fantastic site. I meant that it's always been hard for newbies to figure out the whole setup and now it's been magnified a few times, so I can't imagine how many people are totally confused by everything that is being offered at this time.

VP works on my system and I even have an ATI card, but I know very little about computers and I'm not the least bit interested in creating a pinball cabinet or rotating my monitor or adding a monitor for backglasses, but it's great for those that want it, even if it does create alot of confusion. Even yourself, who's been around here for a few years, seems to have little interest left in VP or have kept up with the VP part of the scene. 99% of all people who discover VP soon vanish from the scene and the other 1% are a strange breed. :)

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

@JP,
thank you, sir. i had no idea about that.
unfortunately (judging from the download updates) it looks like you are one of the few willing to do that, which seems a pity to me.


@bob,
about "free speech moderation"- if that's the reason he's still claiming for failing to list PN then you could knock me over with a feather. out-of-control threads seem to be the last issue going on at PN.

...

look, i can perfectly understand why the userbase stampedes to the site with the most cutting-edge VP-related features. that's normal. what i don't get is why 'wiser heads' who theoretically care about the health and hardiness of VP (er, excluding JP!) don't seem to care whether there is a backup site any more in the VP scene.

maybe because we've never had 'wiser heads' in this scene?

okay, okay, i don't know... i'm just throwing ideas out there!

 

[sleepy]

Randy once told me that he didn't want VP distributed though other sites.
That policy indicates a commercial interest and so does not providing or maintaining a backup site. It's like, if the official site with whatever commercial interests fails, then so be it.

 

[bob]

@bob,
about "free speech moderation"- if that's the reason he's still claiming for failing to list PN then you could knock me over with a feather. out-of-control threads seem to be the last issue going on at PN.

...

look, i can perfectly understand why the userbase stampedes to the site with the most cutting-edge VP-related features. that's normal. what i don't get is why 'wiser heads' who theoretically care about the health and hardiness of VP (er, excluding JP!) don't seem to care whether there is a backup site any more in the VP scene.

maybe because we've never had 'wiser heads' in this scene?

okay, okay, i don't know... i'm just throwing ideas out there!

This is a nice backup site.... 1123 Roms and 762 VPM tables that could be downloaded in one day without limitations.

http://www.pinballnirvana.com/forums/downloads.php?do=cat&id=2

I can't speak for Noah as to why he still hasn't added PN, PO or IRPinball to his link list, but I can make an educated guess. :) My guess is he hates those places with a passion as they don't fit into his scheme of controlling the VP universe and he would be slap happy to see them disappear and would even send the Death Star after them, if that was an option.

 

[sleepy]

Oooh. Using The Death Star would be extreme now, wouldn't it?

 

[bob]

Oooh. Using The Death Star would be extreme now, wouldn't it?

It was sort of a slap happy guess...

 

[Noah Fentz]

Hey guys!

I couldn't help but notice this discussion about me and conjecture about my methodology, so I thought I'd drop by and inform you that each Recommended Site posted on VPF has been cordially requested by their respective owners/operators or has in some way contributed to VPF.

In most cases, they link back, which is what it's all about. I think it's a good time for you start asking why they don't link to VPF.

Thanks for the nice comments, guys. I do everything I can to make VPF a great site, and there's plenty more to come.

-Noah

 

[LeeVanCleef]

Hey guys!

I couldn't help but notice this discussion about me and conjecture about my methodology, so I thought I'd drop by and inform you that each Recommended Site posted on VPF has been cordially requested by their respective owners/operators or has in some way contributed to VPF.

In most cases, they link back, which is what it's all about. I think it's a good time for you start asking why they don't link to VPF.

Thanks for the nice comments, guys. I do everything I can to make VPF a great site, and there's plenty more to come.

-Noah

Is that really what it's all about? You know, I've heard the arguments on both sides of the whole VPF.com/.org debate and, while I could see that both sides have their points, I never agreed with the folks that thought VPF.org was one of the world's evils. After what I could only look at as a rather selfish response, I'm ready to rethink that argument.
If I read your statement correctly, VPF.org doesn't recommend a site judged on its resources or contents, they only recommend a site because that site, in return, recommends VPF.org, or has graciously asked for His Holiness to mention their site on his page. From what you've written here, I can only surmise that you could be sending newbies to some rip-off neptuneholographics-type site, just as long as neptuneholographics recommends VPF.org to their users. I would assume that, if you truly wanted to take on the mantle of the premiere VPF site on the internet, you would be a little more egalitarian in linking that site to the ones who have served this community so well and for so much longer than yours has, i.e. Pinball Nirvana and especially IR Pinball. Forgive me for seeming emotional on the subject, but IR pinball was the first VP-related site I discovered, and deserves a hell of a lot more respect and/or attention than you're giving it. I don't want to pick on JP, but I don't see a single link to your site on JPG-PINS home page. Maybe you better scurry back and delete it from your recommended sites list!
What it comes down to is that during all those earlier arguments, the thought that "Gee, Noah is really small-minded" never once occured to me. It seems that it should have.

 

[Noah Fentz]

As is the norm for this most delightful site, someone has dissected my post in such a way as to get some warped perspective... I suppose you missed the part where I posted: IN MOST CASES. JP and GRONI bring a lot to the site and the community already.

Your comment about content and "His Holiness" is just adolescent.

I didn't post to argue or be attacked, but I suppose I should have known better here. Are there any more questions regarding why I don't add this site? I should hope not, as this serves as a perfect example.

I'd like to know why what I'm doing is constantly criticized when all I do is work tirelessly to provide the best possible site I can. I don't ever post a bad word about PN or anyone.

Thanks, again, for the insults and the intentional, drama-initiating misinterpretation, Ruby.

 

[Shockman]

This is what I talking about when said in response to Noah saying that it would bring the community togather that it could serve to rip it apart. I was told it was not the intention.

A link to PN would be at any good Visual Pinball site.

A link to VPF should be at any good Visual Pinball site.

I figured it would turn out like this, and expressed that. After what Noah said, I thought I was wrong. I wasn't.

 

[Noah Fentz]

Actually Shocky, I won't tell you you are wrong, but that is an incorrect assessment.

I had linked to PN in the beginning, and I was given more than enough motivation to remove it.

I thought we were all past this. More accusations and finger-pointing is certainly not going to be productive, yet they are seemingly always pointing in my direction.

As I mentioned in my first post, it's time to start asking others why.

I'm done with this.

 

[jpsalas]

This is one of things that put me off, and it nearly made me quit making tables a few times before. The old vpforums where full of this arguing, attacks, critizisms, jealously, or whatever it is. All I can say is that I'm tired of it.

For the record: JPG-PINS it was Groni's site when we worked together a couple on months in a few tables. Then he made his solo site, which he call megapin. My site is and has always been the one in my signature, and I have a few links to the major VP sites, I could have added some more, but I think they are enough.

All this arguing remembers me of mIRC with a lot of people going into chats just to argue and start wars

JP

 

[mrschultz]

I had linked to PN in the beginning, and I was given more than enough motivation to remove it.

I thought we were all past this. More accusations and finger-pointing is certainly not going to be productive, yet they are seemingly always pointing in my direction.

As I mentioned in my first post, it's time to start asking others why.

I'm done with this.

So, some people disagreed with you here, so the link was removed?

I'm sorry but that just reinforces the perception that you are not in this for the community but for yourself.

Actions might speak louder than words, but words can take away from actions. Constantly playing the victim, claiming you are working tirelessly and get no respect doesn't make people respect you. Working hard and never mentioning it is what earns respect.

 

[LeeVanCleef]

I suppose you missed the part where I posted: IN MOST CASES. .

I didn't miss it. It came right before your declaration of "that's what it's all about", which concerned your statement that recommended sites linked back to your site. You said, and I repeat, "that's what it's all about." I did miss the part in my post where I insulted you. I exaggerated your rather grandiose claim that a site must "cordially request" that VPF.org link by referring to you as "His Holiness". I also claimed that you are being small-minded not to include a link to PN because someone said something naughty about your site... none of which is insulting. It's simply opinion. So, let me put it to you, Noah; without invective and hopefully without something you might construe as being "adolescent." I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've visited IR Pinball. Nice site, huh? Been around for ages. Great by-decade layout, easy-access screen shots, really nice update screen for the new releases. Doesn't have all the bells and whistles your site has, but perfect for newbies to navigate around. So why wouldn't your site "recommend" IR Pinball? What is it about the site that you find contemptible? I mean, I would and have recommended IR Pinball to others... why wouldn't you? Does VPF.org truly demand that a site reciprocate a link before it's deemed a worthy and valuable asset to the VP scene? If you were actually tirelessly working to provide the best possible site you can, wouldn't that site include a link to such a rich VP resource? I agree wholeheartedly with Shocky:

A link to PN would be at any good Visual Pinball site.

A link to VPF should be at any good Visual Pinball site.

And I would throw in IR, as well. Hey, it's your site... link to whoever you want to. But don't cover up the fact that you're holding grudges with the martyr stance and "best site" nonsense.

@ Nic: I agree wholeheartedly with what you said in your first post; this is all your fault! :)

 

[TheMcD]

So yeah.... wasn't this thread about backing up releases at PN?

A+ thread derailment.

The McD

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

going back to the cross-linking issue noah mentioned- that seems to be the first step to get headed in a better direction between the two sites. so how about we resolve that? (if nothing else)

i wrote this up just now for the PN links section:

VPForums.org For those who don't know, it's the second iteration of VPF- but same level of activity, tables posted and other good stuff. Extremely well-maintained site and a real treasure for VP-enthusiasts.

i didn't actually submit it because the issue depends on whether jon is cool with it.

is jon cool with it?

 

[Humid]

My first reaction to the main topic , 'where are the backups?' is simple. If an author wants his tables here eg: Tab and Destruk, they would post them here. Many authors post at both sites, and some do not. Bob points out that many true enthusiasts know all the sites, and so do the authors. I agree that IRPinball deserves a link, based solely on its depth as a resource for older tables not hosted elsewhere.

I do find it unpleasantly amusing that Noah must defend every nuance of his 'holy empire' here at PN. Seems he has proven his dedicational flavor to VP, with his indepth interviews, resources and tutorials. He shrugs off the bashing he receives rather well IMO. To link or not to link seems a trivial point in the grand scheme of VP's continued success. Those who care enough already know both sites.

 

[Rick2007]

Noah Fentz saved the pinball scene after the "old VP site was shut down."
I thank him every day.
Actually, his site is way better than the old site.
He does not deserve any of the crap that has been flung his way!!!!!!!!

Rick :)