What is Wrong With Visual Pinball?

[sleepy]

I've been focusing on the PINemHigh challenges and playing the tables for high score, and I have to comment on the unusual behaviors that I've come to know when using VP912, though I am not sure if these behaviors are also frequent in previous versions.

Right off, the Slingshots. For some reason, when the ball hits the low end of a Slingshot, the Ball is Pushed Upward and toward the opposite outlane.
This is not likely to happen on a real Slingshot when the ball hits Below the Slingshot solenoid. A ball hitting a Slingshot at the solenoid will usually push the ball horizontally-to-slightly upward toward the opposite Slingshot and a hit below the solenoid will push the ball downward due to the downward angle of the rubber at the point of contact, often toward the same flipper if held in the up position.

Some kind of Shaker. Several times now I've seen the ball rolling downtable toward the outhole in what should be a straight smooth downward roll, but then shakes slightly to the left and right while rolling downward without ever touching the nudge.

Balls hitting the top front of a Slingshot and Rolling Up and Over the Same Slingshot to the outlane on the same side.

Balls rolling up an Up Flipper from the inlane and gliding sloowly across
to the opposite outlane instead of across to the opposite flipper, inlane or slingshot.

A ball rolling across an up flipper to the opposite up flipper and while the opposite flipper is up, the ball rolls toward the inlane, but then stops in the middle of the up flipper and mysteriously rolls Backwards to the outhole, Against the flipper angle.

A ball Losing Energy when stuck in a shuttle move by the Slingshots back and forth. On a real machine the ball loses slingshot energy in a shuttle move when it begins to hit the rubber off-center and away from the slingshot solenoid

The direction of a ball becoming lost or confused when between two opposing flipper tips or when caught between two or more flippers mounted on the same side, then suddenly loses all apparent energy and drops through the outhole.

Sloow-mooving balls gliding all the way to the outlane, or faster balls suddenly losing energy right at the outhole, usually when moving in a hairpin pattern, in spite of the velocity impression of the ball's graphics.

Ball-through-flipper at the flipper tips. May be dependent on the flipper shape or thickness.

 

[Shockman]

I downloaded three of Gronis tables. Besides trying VP8 tables with limited success and trying about three VP9 tables on my last computer, this is all I have.

I have encountered some of those problems, and more, but not all of those problems.

The Lord Of The Rings.
Like the other two the flippers seem to be resting too high, and don't swing up enough either. It's an old intentional trick to get more control, by limiting it actually that I never bought into. Also the center shot is way to easy and repetitious without trying. I actually found it a little difficult to hit the ball anywhere else. The Balrog was out of place, but the game played OK. The ball did appear to accelerate when rolling over the flipper which is strange. Sound seemed perfect and in sync.

Terminator 3
This one was strange, completly different flipper settings but still lacking full swing (unless the perspective is really whack down there in VP9). I expected simular settings to LOTR though. when I flipped with T3 it was like the ball would stick to the flipper and go off to the right with the right flipper when I flipped early to send it left. It did not appear to be lag, because the flipper reaction was instant, but instead physics. The game otherwise played very well it seemed in the brief try.

Simpsons Pinball Party
I downloaded it by mistake thinking I was clicking on LOTR so I downloaded the rom later. I did not try it much, I never did like the game. It seemed to play well, but I don't think I played it enough for it to hit a flipper so I don't know about that.

My conclusion is that VP9 is not yet ready for prime time, but is probably good enough for the cabinet market. All these games are useless to play on a desktop PC and it's a shame, at least in my opinion. Pinball without nudging is like not having wheels on that 62 vette. You can sit in it and pretend you are driving, I guess, if you have a good imagination. However, and bad as the nudging is anything would make it better, the correct direction would make it better for example and that can be addressed in a script. Recoil can also be addressed to a large degree.

Flipper settings are a bitch and from what I gather from playing other's tables, not just for me. There are much more settings, but most of these settings are bandaids that do not work well it seems to me. I never built a table in VP9 but I could make a VP8 ball go where ever I wanted it. Oblique correction is not a pinball physic. The timing of the flip, the speed of the flipper and the power of the flipper should determine where the ball is going to go. Adding a algorithm to bad physics to make it go up the center more often is not the way to make flipper physics. Even in VP8 hitting a ball on the fly ranged from a bit unpredictable to surprise!!! but VP9 seems more like a dice throw, which is probably part of VP's problem, it need more sides to the dice.

It seems that VP9 table builders have brought back one of Pacdudes methods of setting the flippers up to make shots. But I find when playing a real Pinball that the ball could actually miss a ramp and hit nothing, instead of missing one ramp and hitting another one.

However this is observation of existing tables. I have not put full effort into physic settings. I can say that I don't see any improvement in VP9 physics over VP8, there is more to work with, but i have yet to see a single VP9 table that had ball vectors off the flipper as predictable as VP8, and that is an insult to VP9 because 8 was not perfect either.

I need some control, and it needs to be more than hitting the flipper when it can reach a ball. The shots have to be predictable, even with a flying ball, and nudging needs to have logic. I can't imaging what a cabinet has to do with VP flippers, but it could. No doubt it helps the plunger action and is the only game in town with logical nudging.

Slings shots. I can not discuss slingshots without laughing and crying.

It's really too bad. VP9 has made some major visual improvements that it needed bad, but when playability is closely looked at, on a PC at least, it is a piece of shit, compared to 8. But like I said I have not fully examined the flipper settings, and I have come up with some surprising flipper settings in the past. And my best effort made the nudging only 1,599,765,789,543 times better, if I can not get that to at least 1.85 trillion, what would be the point?

 

[faralos]

Flipper setting in vp9 suck to adjust even when building originals too.
seems either they're too powerful or too slow. The response times all have to be adjusted too
both strength and return strength, too fast it'll blur and possibly miss the ball,
too slow it stutters. at least on my pins anyway. My older tables made with 8 all seem to work okay,
but on my newer wip's I have to adjust the flipper settings for some odd reason,
something I never even thought of in the past and the flippers in vp9 ain't that great an improvement imo
over the ones in vp8 because I can still bounce a ball over them at times, okay there ain't no more thru the flipper thing
using the default settings, but I can still get that to happen when I slow down the flipper speed a bit
so that issue isn't really gone just adjusted for
but hey vp9 still is an immense improvement over vp8 and I will continue to use it
until vp10 comes out anyway!

 

[Shockman]

In some areas VP9 is an immense improvement. But in the ones that really matter, it has taken a step or two back. In at least one, it has taken it back to before VP1.

 

[sleepy]

How about when the ball is rolling across an up flipper and you smack the flipper...and the ball continues to roll slowly across where the up flipper was, so you smack it two or three more times...and the ball continues to roll slowly across where the up flipper was until it drains out the outhole? As if table slope is temporarily suspended and as if the up flipper provided no support for the ball against table slope.

EDIT: But the ball losing energy as it travels parallel to the angle of the up flipper indicates that the ball is rolling against the incline of the up flipper, in which case you should be able to smack the ball with the flipper and have at least a slight bop to it.
Else it is gliding above the contact plane of the flipper, except a gliding ball indicates a low slope table, in which case the ball would normally glide to the opposite flipper or slingshot, not lose energy and drain at the outhole.

As an example, on the same VPinMame table that I've been playing, the ball frequently behaves in a hairpin and drains at the outhole, but a hairpin behavior belongs to a table with a moderate-to-high slope. On low slope tables, a ball usually behaves in a lazy, broad, low arc horizontal set of motions, unless it hits a solenoid, slingshot, bumper, etc. The ball is likely to travel across and above a flipper on a low slope table and not drain at the outhole.

 

[Shockman]

I don't understand what you mean by smack the flipper when it is up. Do you mean release it and hit it again? Or the ball hitting it?

I do see what you mean about the ball loosing energy and draining. I can understand how this could be a result of the bttf fix (increased collision detection) along with having little or no added power on the back swing, but understanding it does not mean it is not still wrong. The physics in many areas seem fudged, meaning they were addressed without actual physics changes. However, I have yet to see a VP9 table that had correct flipper placement and range of motion, so I would have to adjust that before analysis.

I am not surprised that the slope is fudged as well, meaning different settings for different situations. Sometimes that was necessary in VP<9 as well, for example to do slick spins like in TAXI's spin chamber. With 9 though there is two settings for slope. With slope being a physical single item, this baffles me. With it being a preset suggests that any table is changing slope settings back and forth routinely, like for flipper physic fudging, or slingshot action or something. Or perhaps it just has to do with a new setting like oblique correction, which I would think could alter a single slope setting. I have asked in the past that if I set min slope to 11 and max slope to 9, what slope would I have. Or 9 min and 11 max but I got no answer. Imagine a pinball editor where it is a mystery to set the table slope. Never mind, you don't need to imagine that.

There is things I like about the flipper settings that are new like the power law of whatever it is that gives a bit of give, like over extension, but scatter angle is not one of them, nor is oblique correction. Neither of these would be needed if the physics were not lame.

The plunger, just speaking of the keyboard plunger is also whack and I pointed that out way back when. It should have been put back to where it was, but it obviously never was. It's hard to understand why because I don't think it would have been bothered with if that plunger device that Paul sells works right, but it also could be that that device used the keyboard values instead of a proper routine for the device.

I download Twilight Zone and encountered a disappearing ball on the lower part like you described, but I assume it is a personal hardware issue. Of Groni's tables, it is the only one with that problem for me.

I admit that my last computer had much more graphics issues, and I suspect that a new VP9 had more to do with that than my new computer. Like I said before though, and mean, If I had a choice of playing a simulation that looked real in every detail including flasher lighting and perfect perspective, but had physics like any of the current simulations, OR a wire frame model with low resolution and perfect physics, I would not be playing the pretty one.

 

[sleepy]

Yep. When the ball is rolling across an up flipper, release the flipper to then try to hit the ball with it.

 

[sleepy]

It's a shame the mouse can't be used in VP to control the Plunger with a click to fire it. I saw that Hyperpin is using a mouse for Plungers, or can, but I don't know the details or whether the mouse allows post adjustment of the Plunger after pullback.

A mouse Plunger would also be excellent for bagatelle/pachinko games.

 

[Shockman]

I think my very first suggestion I ever made about VP was a mouse plunger. Made sense 10 years ago too.

I have confirmed what you said. Collision does not work if the ball is on a flipper that is up and you drop it and try to hit the ball again. This appears to be the case 100% of the time. It also appears to be exactly as you said too, not a BTTF problem, but that the ball is suspended as if the slope is gone. Makes you wonder. VP8 had no such issue. I wonder if there is a work around for this?

No point in mentioning it at VPF though. Trust me. They don't seem too keen on the finer points there.

 

[sleepy]

One workaround could be to add a little downward velocity to the ball when releasing the flipper and then activate this process with a Trigger. It might help unless the program is still not seeing collision...

Another one. Sometimes a downward moving ball seems like it rolls around a flipper on the upswing and out, usually on fast balls headed toward the tip half of a flipper on the upswing.

Makes me wonder if flipper collision is even in use, because sometimes the ball acts like it's responding to the arc zone of the flipper, like a control area, instead of responding to a virtual collision with a flipper in mid swing.

 

[faralos]

hey that mouse idea sounds workable!
if we could set the mouse to be used like the joysticks on an xbox controller with the tiger woods golf games then the mouse could be pulled back for the plunger strength then rolled forward to release said plunger, that would be way cool and a much better way to do hard shots vs. soft plunger shots imo
now how to get it working is the big question does the mouse also have a set um...
numerical value like all the keys do? like can it be set up to activate at all in vp?
actually thinking in those terms can ANY video game controller be set up to be used with vp?
can anyone then use the joysticks for a variable strength plunger shot?

 

[Shockman]

Why to get it working is the real question. There are more basic needs that have existing code available, like the nudging that has not been addressed for years. Nearly all released by VPF's dev team has altered the analog plungers dead zone, but not a single one has plugged a routine that exists back into VP (keyboard nudging) Why? because it is not perfect is the excuse. Not working on something because it is not perfect. What a concept. But that's just being factious. I imagine the reason the dead zone of the real plunger device was worked on was because it was not perfect.

What have the VPF devs done for keyboard users? This is why I am banned. make no mistake.


The UC team made unusable the analog joystick code in VP. I don't know if they wrote it, or Randy or black did, but it is at least in part still in VP. No conspiracy. It is not working for some other reason than to keep it from being useful outside a UC (or VP) cabinet.

 

[Shockman]

Makes me wonder if flipper collision is even in use, because sometimes the ball acts like it's responding to the arc zone of the flipper, like a control area, instead of responding to a virtual collision with a flipper in mid swing.

I'm wondering the same thing.

First though, is it accepted and acknowledged at VPF? The first attack should be from those that have written code for flippers and ball interaction, if they are still around. Fixing code is always preferred over workarounds.

It's ironic though that the fix for the ball through the flipper that was hailed as 'mission accomplished' is after all this time discovered to be exactly what the VP8 work around was. Simply avoiding a malfunction of ball and flipper collision. But actually VP9 causes a malfunction that did not exist in VP8, and a malfunction with ball and flipper collision.

Is this going to be flagged with a big red flasher that says 'incorrect behavior here', since it is in the current version of VP?

But of course they are right, I'm the one that is off the wall

 

[Shockman]

This really accentuates what is wrong with VP.

The flipper workaround for VP8 was acceptable to everyone even with it's shortcomings. After VP9 'fixed' it, only then it is said to be the worse thing that ever happened to VP by a VPdev leader, and that it never worked by the VPF admin.

It turns out that VP9 needs a work around or fix for a problem with the flipper not colliding with the ball when it should be.

VP needs everyone involved that it can get. It needs coders, yes, but it also needs analyzers, testers, experimenters, players, builders, fans, and critics, but it also needs thinkers, troubleshooters, and masters of problem solving. It needs everyone with a passion for it. It needs people honest about it, not just people enamored by it. It certainly does not need complacency.

 

[1234fd]

This really accentuates what is wrong with VP.

The flipper workaround for VP8 was acceptable to everyone even with it's shortcomings. After VP9 'fixed' it, only then it is said to be the worse thing that ever happened to VP by a VPdev leader, and that it never worked by the VPF admin.

It turns out that VP9 needs a work around or fix for a problem with the flipper not colliding with the ball when it should be.

VP needs everyone involved that it can get. It needs coders, yes, but it also needs analyzers, testers, experimenters, players, builders, fans, and critics, but it also needs thinkers, troubleshooters, and masters of problem solving. It needs everyone with a passion for it. It needs people honest about it, not just people enamored by it. It certainly does not need complacency.

Why don´t you fix it ? Isn´t VP open source ?

 

[Shockman]

I just got my first VP9 table on a system that VP9 would work well on yesterday.

I will fix it if I can. I fall more into the trouble shooters, and problem solvers category than a coder though. I in fact have a hard time at best with other's code.

 

[sleepy]

The thing about flipper collision is that, as the flipper is moving, shouldn't we be able to access the animation point of the flipper graphic? Like accessing or assigning a specific frame in an EMReel animation? VP appears to draw 8, 16 or more "flippers" in order to portray the swing of each flipper, but I haven't found a method for accessing any of the flipper animation frames.
This isn't ordinary behavior for an Object with a collision event.

Seems to me that if we cannot get a return on Flipper1 as a call to the flipper array or collection, then maybe collision isn't in use and the flipper motions are strictly for animation.

 

[bob]

VP Flippers just don't have enough degrees of angles for hitting the ball. You can set them to hit certain shots and that is about it.

Unfortunately, Nudging is better turned off.

Here is a flipper tester table I made to see how many shots were possible with anyone's flipper settings. I made this to see how the different speeds and flipper settings effected the shots. I thought I might find a nice combination of settings, but without any objects on the playfield, you will soon see that VP flippers have limited shot possibilities at any settings.

 

[faralos]

I think if the flipper animation were accessible within the coding
we would have seen pin manufacturer names on the actual flippers
like as is done with FP
that is still a pipe dream in vp tho to have like say
Gottleib written on the flipper tops without resorting to drop walls
with the image on them

 

[Shockman]

Bob is right. Flippers need to function as mere solid objects, and react as such, but they need to also have a vast number plugged into the swing function, regardless of, and separate to if necessary, the visual rendering of it. It seems at this point as if it renders 20 visual positions that the ball will go any of 20 vectors. The number of vectors a real pinball would take is infinite even though the scope is contained. A simulator needs at least thousands. This is after all a computer and should be able to handle a much larger range.

 

[sleepy]

And I was wondering if the visual perspective actually needs separate flipper renderings?
Instead of one angle given the table perspective and then rotate that singular flipper image.

I mean, for all the multiple flipper renderings per viewing angle, would it be graphically incorrect to use only one rendering and rotate it at the start radius? I wonder because using only one rendering per flipper and then rotating it infinitely might make more sense from a collision standpoint.

Either way, using one rotated render or the current set of fixed vector renderings, if the program paints the flipper position to the video buffer first, and then checks the ball.Y => flipper.x, flipper.y then Collision = True, there shouldn't be any problem with ball through flipper Or ball misdirection from the flipper requiring workarounds.

Faralos, I don't mean accessing the flipper rendering process, though that would be nice to at least be able to draw Objects, flippers, bumpers, etc. by using a COM Object injected into the VPlayer table redering process.

No, I meant, because a Flipper is pre-rendered in VP as a set of animated vectors representing the swing of the flipper, that we *should* be able to access each position of the flipper; that is, if the pre-rendered positions exist as a dynamic subset of the Flipper Object.
But the inability to call any one flipper position suggests that the animated flipper swings are not accessible by design; that they exist in VP as a Static set the same as the Decal Object.
Decals have no methods for manipulation from script, and neither does any specific position of a flipper in motion.

Here's an example. Put a Flipper1 and a Bumper on a new Table.
Leave the default Flipper1.StartAngle at 120 and the EndAngle at 60. VP pre-renders the Flipper positions as separate "flippers", so a .StartAngle of 90 or thereabouts "should be available from the pre-rendered set*.
If I use
Sub Bumper1_Hit()
Flipper1.StartAngle = 90

The Flipper will not reset its StartAngle to 90. Now I could easily be wrong, but if the 90 degree rendering is there and is assigned by StartAngle to the pre-rendered position, I think I should be able to move the Flipper1 to that position, but I need to be sure of the availability in the rendered flipper subset, and the matter of dynamic assignment of each position by degree in order to be able to assign the flipper position in a script.

As far as I know, nobody can do it currently. Every shift of flipper positions in existing tables is either a New flipper or an EMReel.

EDIT: I've never been able to use
ScoreText.Text = Flipper1.RotateToEnd 'or flipper Anything
and see any kind of data returned from the flipper motion.
So, the flipper pre-renderings are at least set to "Private" Dims/Arrays, if not existing as "Static" subsets.

According to the Visual Studios help file, all Objects exist as Objects contained in variables.

 

[Shockman]

I thought the flippers did have a RotateTo XXX script command, but I guess not. If it did and had the speed set to 1 (instant) it would in effect be just that. I would not expect any collision though in that case. No real physics would have a flipper get from one position to another without rotating to it.

 

[sleepy]

As far as I can tell, the start and end angles are only adjustable through the editor menu, not the script, and .RotateToEnd rotates strictly to the setting in the editor menu with no data Method available in script.

 

[Shockman]

That's actually correct behavior then. I have never seen flippers with variable starting and ending positions. Not dynamically, and probably not user adjustable either.

 

[Shockman]

VP Flippers just don't have enough degrees of angles for hitting the ball. You can set them to hit certain shots and that is about it.

Unfortunately, Nudging is better turned off.

Here is a flipper tester table I made to see how many shots were possible with anyone's flipper settings. I made this to see how the different speeds and flipper settings effected the shots. I thought I might find a nice combination of settings, but without any objects on the playfield, you will soon see that VP flippers have limited shot possibilities at any settings.

This is an interesting test table.

Does it use the table slope of each example set?
Have you considered adding another example set, named perhaps Bobs best effort? One for each would be really interesting.
Have you considered putting a graph with each light ( a raising wall, or series, or lights, that counted or gave a graphical idea of the tendencies?
Have you tried adding a ball on the fly instead of rolling down the flipper, to plot that behavior? This in my opinion is where VP flipper physics break down to the point of crumble.

Have you tried enough settings as to conclude that it is impossible to broaden the range, or to get more logical and predictable vectors, or is it your suggestion that these settings have not been refined and they could be improved upon.

I would not assume, with basically nonphysical functions added that effect the vectors, like scatter angle, and oblique correction, that it would be possible to get any settings that would make someone fail to think 'this is not right'.

I have read many times that flipper settings are a personal thing. That would be true if the reason it was said is because it is acknowledgement that the flippers are not capable of anything that resembles real world physics. and would not make any sense if they were capable of that. People just don't come off a correctly working real pin and say the flipper settings are whack. They might like them, or not, but it is not a personal thing. Not the settings. They are a machine thing and react to everyone exactly the same, with unwavering and indisputable physics.

If you remember, I made mods of a few tables with my best effort at flipper settings using VP<9 (6 through 8) that if not banned as being unauthorized, would have at least squashed the rumor that there is no way to get balls to work both the sides and the middle. I made example tables too and played a game with them that involved picking off certain targets between targets in the correct, though random in layout order. I have cleared the targets a number of times without more than a single timing error or two.

I have no doubt that VP could be one of the top notch simulators of pinball. Better even without code adjustments (not better than all others, but better than it's self), But personalities have prohibited it so far. No evil force is going to give ideas that improve the VP experience in the slightest, but evil, or personal pride could prevent it.

Flipper settings. They have always been worked on, and others have adopted a set made up, And people have said theirs are the best. But they none work as one would expect from even reasonable settings. The first problem I had with Noah, and know it caused problems with others as well is remarking on Paul's 'perfect' flipper settings. It set off a storm of insults that were not true regarding my flipper settings. I said Pauls' had good points, and they did, but shots were not predictable at all for me.

When you take away flippers and nudging, nothing is left. Nothing, in terms of the pinball experience, except work on the simulator. The more this is put off, the more tables are going to become obsolete when, assuming it's not IF correct algorithms replace those that are flawed, like what happened with VP8 to 9. The more backwards compatibility is preserved, the less forward progression is possible.