Will Future Pinball cause a technology split?

[tiltjlp]

Not so much a VP versus FP split, but a split as far as those of us who will have equipment powerful enough to run FP and those of us who don't. What I wonder about most is how many authors are planning to make dual releases, one version for Visual Pinball and one version for Future Pinball. I think the deciding factor for me is going to be what % of folks in the VP/FP community won't be able to use FP. That's assuming that I'm even able to run FP on my 3 year old desk top.

Just how much more work will be involved in making both a VP and a FP version. Ideally, we would be able to import our VP tables to the FP editor, and at least use the framework as a starting point, but I doubt if that will be the case. For me, building a table usually isn't that difficult, scripting is the hardest part for me. In my case, I'll need to eliminate flippers, inlanes, and slingshots, and then search and destroy those sections of code. If it's easy, no problem, but if it's a real chore, well, I already know how to do that in VP.

So what are your plans?

John

 

[Guest]

This is better John.
Nice intelligent poser with no bitterness attached to it.

I can say that you are quite correct. There will be those who won't have the hardware to run FP properly.
We realised this almost from the begining.
However just how many people can run the latest games properly these days without some sort of hardware update?
I doubt John Carmack (ID Software) put much thought into what % of gamers would have a rig capable of running Doom3 while he was coding up the new GFX engine.

I can safely tell you that you can't and will never be able to import VP tables into FP.
The logistics of trying to do something like that are quite out of reach.
You will understand when (and if) you try FP.

My plans are to wing it.
Up till now my time is extremely limited and I have been managing to get a bit of both FP and VP
table construction in so, I'll wing it for now.

 

[tiltjlp]

This is better John.
Nice intelligent poser with no bitterness attached to it.

I can say that you are quite correct. There will be those who won't have the hardware to run FP properly.
We realised this almost from the begining.
However just how many people can run the latest games properly these days without some sort of hardware update?
I doubt John Carmack (ID Software) put much thought into what % of gamers would have a rig capable of running Doom3 while he was coding up the new GFX engine.

I can safely tell you that you can't and will never be able to import VP tables into FP.
The logistics of trying to do something like that are quite out of reach.
You will understand when (and if) you try FP.

My plans are to wing it.
Up till now my time is extremely limited and I have been managing to get a bit of both FP and VP
table construction in so, I'll wing it for now.

I'm glad you approve Leon, although maybe that's a sign I'm slipping in my advancing years. Actually, there has never been any bitterness toward you, Black, Future Pinball, or anyone connected with the FP project. Anything you preceived as such was merely an attempt on my part to generate interest in discussions and or debates, which hopefully add and build interest in our forums.

The main reason for this poll is to remind authors that there will be people who won't be able to use FP, and that hopefully they won't be forgotten in the enthusiastic rush to Future Pinball. While JPH will have to decide if Future Pinball tables will be hosted here, I've suggested to him that they are. But then again, how many flipperless authors do we have?

Not knowing what components my computer has, I'll simply have to wait and see if it'll run on my beast. And if Patrick decides to use Future Pinball too, that will make my decision easier, since he is the brains behind our partnership. It should be an interesting time for most of us, to say the least.

John

 

[davidsss]

It will be interesting to see what happens. Future Pinball will start behind the eight ball to some extent just because of the number of tables available for VP. I have been learning to make VP tables and am somewhat reluctant to learn a new programme, I know VP ain't perfect but we are getting some pretty good reproductions at the moment, the standard is high now. I don't know how many people will bother making 2 versions of the same table, it does seem a lot of duplication. Anyway, we'll see. Another factor is if VP is improved with the association with UltraCade.

I am looking at new computers at the moment so I will probably be able to run FP on the new machine. However, I am planning to use the old computer for a MAME/PinMAME cabinet which probably won't run FP so there is another disincentive and I'm probably not alone in using an old PC for a cabinet.

DS

 

[scapino]

Remember too, that for the moment, there is no VPM for FP, so any real life tables will have to be completly coded by hand, to try to emulate them.

I plan to re-create all of my tables in FP, except the ones using a DMD display.

I think a LOT of the work I do on my VP tables (graphicly), will transfer over to FP, so I'll continue to do VP versions. The FP versions will probably come out first, as they should be easier to finish, but who knows, maybe they will come out at the same time.

Especially the VPM tables. They will have to be completly coded in FP, and that will take just as much time as it takes to make reel images and animations for the VPM version.

We will see how it works out in the "future"

Kurt

 

[Guest]

Remember too, that for the moment, there is no VPM for FP, so any real life tables will have to be completly coded by hand, to try to emulate them.

I plan to re-create all of my tables in FP, except the ones using a DMD display.

I think a LOT of the work I do on my VP tables (graphicly), will transfer over to FP, so I'll continue to do VP versions. The FP versions will probably come out first, as they should be easier to finish, but who knows, maybe they will come out at the same time.

Especially the VPM tables. They will have to be completly coded in FP, and that will take just as much time as it takes to make reel images and animations for the VPM version.

We will see how it works out in the "future"

Kurt

In the MANY ICQ chats I have had with Black, you name Scapino has come up a lot.
I personally can't wait till FP gets all of the model import and manipulation tools in just so I can see what a man with your modeling and graphical skills can produce.
As you say "All that lies in the "future"".

 

[StevOz]

My understanding was that all of the model import and manipulation tools would cost?

Are there exceptions for talented table makers?

 

[tiltjlp]

My understanding was that all of the model import and manipulation tools would cost?

Are there exceptions for talented table makers?

According to what Black has posted on the FP forum, all Future Pinball versions/updates will be free.

John

 

[scapino]

Most of the tables I've made, with the exception of CV and TwilightZone, are quite do-able with FP, in its current state with no added models, so I can wait. The challenge will be to code the table so it opperates like the real one.

But it can be done! I'm actually looking forward to the challenge. One of the things I miss when I do a VPM table is coding the tables behavour.

Kurt

 

[Guest]

My understanding was that all of the model import and manipulation tools would cost?

Are there exceptions for talented table makers?

That was the original plan.
As I understand it that has been "shelved" for the time being and the first release of FP and for the forseeable future updates will be free to download by anybody. (subject to change).

 

[kristian]

I'm a emulation purist so I probably stick with VP when I want to play VPM tables... but I also love vintages & EM's so I wouldn't mind having prettier versions in FP...

I don't even see those two programs competing with eachother. Nice to have both.

 

[bob]

I'm a emulation purist so I probably stick with VP when I want to play VPM tables... but I also love vintages & EM's so I wouldn't mind having prettier versions in FP...

I don't even see those two programs competing with eachother. Nice to have both.

I don't think we'll have too many people floating back and forth between VP & FP after a period of time. I also don't think more than a couple of authors would make 2 versions, afterall, that sounds more like a job and not a hobby. Eventually, an author will like one program better and that's the one he'll build tables with.

Personally, I think one of the best things about Visual Pinball was the fact that it never changed the last 3 years. I know we all bitched about it, but for someone like me and John, we had the opportunity to learn the program at our own pace, without constant updates and changes that would have befuddled our old minds :) I read a few of the threads at FP Forums and I honestly don't know WTF alot of that stuff was, I mean I went from curious to WTF in less than 10 minutes :)

 

[tiltjlp]

I'm a emulation purist so I probably stick with VP when I want to play VPM tables... but I also love vintages & EM's so I wouldn't mind having prettier versions in FP...

I don't even see those two programs competing with eachother. Nice to have both.

I don't think we'll have too many people floating back and forth between VP & FP after a period of time. I also don't think more than a couple of authors would make 2 versions, afterall, that sounds more like a job and not a hobby. Eventually, an author will like one program better and that's the one he'll build tables with.

Personally, I think one of the best things about Visual Pinball was the fact that it never changed the last 3 years. I know we all bitched about it, but for someone like me and John, we had the opportunity to learn the program at our own pace, without constant updates and changes that would have befuddled our old minds :) I read a few of the threads at FP Forums and I honestly don't know WTF alot of that stuff was, I mean I went from curious to WTF in less than 10 minutes :)

To be honest, I'm still befuddled sometimes with VP. If it wasn't for help from you Bob and a few others, and having Patrick as my partner, I'd sure have a ton of unfinished tables on my HD. I don't learn things as well as I once did, so unless FP is easier than I'm thinking it will be, I'll stick with VP. Patrick and I have VP down to a science, and help each other out with the majority of our work, so why switch if we don't have to. And the fact that none of the VP & FP stuff is interchangable, you're right that dual releases would mean a lot more work, and fewer overall releases.

John

 

[kristian]

FP forum? Is there such forum already?

 

[destruk]

yeah, www.futurepinball.com/forum

 

[yogiholzer]

VPM isn't all, but the tables I love and play, with the exception of VPOH tables, are VPM tables. That will not change with FP. So it will probably be not more than an addition if it runs on my hardware, which I won't update only for that reason. Depending on how many $$$/€€€ are demanded I will decide.

I don't think, authors can and will provide tables for both.

 

[kristian]

Thanks for the link Destruk.

 

[destruk]

np Kristian - of course with their future pinball forum rules, this question is kinda silly. Any post on future pinball forums with any form of copyrighted material will be deleted, so as far as recreations go that eliminates all of them...and originals without any copyright on any part of them narrows it down to perhaps 4 tables in the last 5 years that were interesting to play. Copyright is 85 years doncha know...and then it can be renewed if the copyright holder files for a renewal. Lots of bagetelle's from 1800 I'd expect...lol

 

[tiltjlp]

np Kristian - of course with their future pinball forum rules, this question is kinda silly. Any post on future pinball forums with any form of copyrighted material will be deleted, so as far as recreations go that eliminates all of them...and originals without any copyright on any part of them narrows it down to perhaps 4 tables in the last 5 years that were interesting to play. Copyright is 85 years doncha know...and then it can be renewed if the copyright holder files for a renewal. Lots of bagetelle's from 1800 I'd expect...lol

If you can find me some decent images of those 1800 era bagatelle I'll make them all day long.

John

 

[destruk]

IPDB.ORG lists 3 of them - I'm sure there are many more from the time before cameras, would drawing sketch reproductions work for you?

 

[destruk]

As for Future Pinball, did anyone expect anything different? The rules of the editor have been increased at least 30 times what vp has. From the past years of knowing Black and his perspective and what he's said, do you really think you will be able to ask for something and he'll add it in for you? lol. If you didn't know, he will only include methods, objects, and capabilities that a majority of real machines have. Anything you can't do on a real machine will not be included. The good news is it should be relatively authentic, but the bad news is you will end up doing it exactly like the real machine does....and if any part of that isn't able to be added, the feature can't be done.

The manual shows off the current abilities of the rendering engine, and basic general use of the software, which this is based on. As it is now, it looks absolutely so 5-years ago, sans graphics advancements of course. Every game created will have the same gameroom, and you can modify the poster, OH BOY! Compared from the resolution of the table itself, the gameroom is quiet (misspelled as per manual) bland. Simple low polygon objects with no skinning features.

Some of the current limitations:
maximum number of objects.
Emilia Pinball and VP, Flash, and even the original Pinball Construction Set are all limited by the amount of ram you have, not an arbitrary number
Maximum size of the table
No ball control aside from create, kick and destroy
No gravity modifications of any kind - there is 10 degrees variance in vertical slope (1-10) vertical incline, so any tilting playfields are out completely
No table rotation - Even though the graphics are supposedly rendered real-time with reflections, you can't rotate the table to a specific camera view. I find this quiet a lack of functionality - with 12 camera views available, you'd think it could rotate the perspective at will as well as support actual moving objects instead of the ball and stationary animated models. Also no modification of object properties during runtime unless the model is preprogrammed for animation.

No support for external script files, no support for plugins of any kind. This both helps with bugtesting as there is less chance of failure due to outside causes, but also retains complete control over what you can and can't do with the program itself. What you see is what you get, and that is all there is. The Save option is pending for a script, but why bother with that when saving in a text editor accomplishes the same purpose?

The hard numbers
Any data entered into any field has full error checking to fit the specific range. Why can't I have a table grid set to 60mm if I want it to be 60? Why can't I set the grid to 1mm? again, arbitrary - 5-50mm will be fine for everybody, which means excessive zoom (of which there are probably 4-8 zoom levels) will render the grid useless.
The cabinet and backbox must be the same color. No Multicolor wood cabinets allowed.


You get a table, you get 18 specific items that can be used for a specific purpose - no using drop targets to buld your own toy unless you have the developer version...actually there aren't drop targets, and you get lights....and then the developer version only has methods/abilities that Black allows to be used with his program.

I can't really count the segmented gas displays, as they are all misrendered. No matter how much time has gone into the software, if you call something a Gottlieb Display, yet the improper segments are lit, and the unlit sections are pure black matching the background, it is not correct. Reels and segments are nice, sure. The graphics are good, but from my perspective I'd rather wait until version 3 or 4 to get more functionality, and less stringent laws and more flexible terms of use. - my idea of control is not 18 objects with 7-8 settings for stuff like flipper power, none of which can be changed in the script.

And I realize it's beta software, just with cookie cutter objects and limited options, and very mild, if any flexibility, it's more like those playschool learning toys - star object goes into star hole, ball goes into round hole, you pick the placement of the holes and there is your machine. It's a kid's toy, and a program for those who can't make any decisions on their own. Maybe after a few releases, and some feedback, it will get better, or perhaps visual pinball's updates will make it a non contender.

 

[destruk]

Think I'd better add this before everyone loses their temper, and decides they are quitting and not releasing it, like what happened with the original VP7...
Join Stevoz. Just we should all agree that this is beta software, it's free, and nobody wants real feedback besides "Kudos, it looks awesome and I can't wait to use it" and at some point, 3-4 years down the road, items that have been missing, will magically appear - if there are no flames to the developers and not too many requests....kinda like Jumpman.
It's really good software for the 8 months, and the coding experience gained from seeing how the vp core works, and don't expect anything besides what is given.

 

[tiltjlp]

Looks like I need to read more of the FP manual, to see what all this hoopla is about. The nice thing about VP is how flexiable it is, and so let's hope the same will be true for FP.

John

 

[PacDude]

Thanks for summarizing, Destruk. I won't bother with it. My computer isn't fast enough, anyway. VP, despite its limitations can do some pretty darn amazing thins, IMO and I like being able to create new functionalty by simply creating it with new script objects (i.e. light system flexibility, ball control via triggers to do whatever new thing, etc.) and about 10 different ways of doing the same thing with different methods (huge flexibility in the background versus playfield areas; if only a few things were upgraded like local horizontal texture mapping, hard surface decals without the need to "back them up" with walls, etc. and a background preview and VP woiuld be even more flexibile and powerful. Hopefully, Ultracade will one day help deliver that, but I'm not counting on it. David told me he'd get back to me shortly on something and it's been 1.5 months and I'm still waiting to hear an answer (this despite the fact they seem to be having fun playing with my tables on their system despite not having a contract signed with me, which I find a bit irritating). But you get what you pay for with VP (and then some, it seems compared to FP).

FP might one day be pretty powerful, but for now it sounds like Black is trying to make it a "wow" thing for users that just want simple methods to do simple tables. I don't see any method that requires scripting to be terribly simple (Roller Coaster Tycoon style controls is what I call "simple" methods to build fairly interesting models, at least in version 3 which is a total hoot to build coasters that crash and burn with as you finally get to ride them.... right off the track and into the ferris wheel. :D :D :D It even runs pretty well on my mere 1GHz ATI 7500 powered machine (as long as I don't build a big park; works fine for playing with one or two coasters in small park setting, which for my Gomez style crashing games works just fine.... :D )

 

[Liteuser.]

I plan to download FP when its out, I know its a pretty large download. I'm interested in playing what tables can be made by other authors to see what all can be done at first. I'll need to learn as much as I can before I feel I may even have a shot at an original table worth releasing.

The table file size does concern me , What would you say the smallest size could be zipped for an average table, If I consider 2.5 MB to 5 MB to be average file size for VP tables, then what will be the average size be for FP tables.

I'm not sure if FP will run on my system, I have a Geforce 4 440 graphics card, 1.2 GHz AMD Duron cpu and 512 MB of ram. I know my system is out dated and I have another pc that I don't use for VP that I could run FP with. But if my cpu can handle it on this one, I could easily upgrade my graphics card to run FP. Guess I'll have to wait and see. FP does look pretty cool so far IMO.