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Wow .... it's sure quiet here

elton

Pinball Wizard
Has everyone deserted PN :?: :cry:

If you look carefully, you can see the ghosts of past members flowing through the old place ........




........ there went another one. :cry:

Did anyone see that :?:

Shit, the coffee was stronger than I thought - better stick to alcofrolic drinks then .... I know where I stand then :lol:


Hello, is there anybody here .......
















..... not even an echo :(
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
RE: Wow .... it

Maybe because people have nothing important to talk about anymore.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
RE: Replies ....

http://www.savefile.com/files/367430
Get the latest Mr. & Mrs. PAC-MAN (bb6.2) there and look in table info. Clicking on web site will take you to my projects file where you can download better playing versions of Fire Power, Vector, White Water, Monopoly, Lord of the Rings, Cactus Canyon, Space Invaders, and Sorcerer. These files will stay up, as long as the btf fix is not in the core.vbs file. That will give you something to talk about. Or maybe not, since no one wanted to talk about the ball through the flipper fix being taken out of the core.vbs file because you fear getting PacDude on your bad side or not having him release tables. Yes, this will give you something to talk about. PacDude's name has been stripped out of the script, table info, everywhere. I have more mods done and the least ready plays better, looks better, and behaves better than their counterparts, and at this point will add another each day, give or take.
You could have talked about lies, that I asked for the core to be stripped, that the code being in PacDude's tables was unnecessary, that .137 is much better than .135, that I did not make contact anyone on the VPM team, that .140 is the value I use, that PacDude's tables are free to mod, that the new core fixes the ball through the flipper problem, that you are stupid if you don't use flipper speeds as fast as PacDude does, that it is cheating if you can actually aim the ball, that the tables would be too easy if you had an idea where the ball was going to go when you flipped it, and my favorite, that I am modding them to make the harder shots easier and sacrificing other shots in the process.
Another is that the flippers are the worse part of VP's physics. I don't think they are. The btf is a problem, but unlike what many think, realistic settings work great, and you don't have to set them with certain shots in mind if you set them well.
Another thing that you may have read is that you will notice the speed change when the ball is on the trigger. That too is untrue. Don't flip and you notice nothing, flip up, or have the flipper up and you notice nothing, flipping down you may, and you may not, but that is the only time the flippers speed up to avoid the ball. So the only time you will notice it is when you are trying to dead catch the ball. To do this in VP is very hard indeed. You have got to let the ball hit the flipper no matter how fast the ball is going. You have got to do this while the flipper is all the way up, unlike on a real machine. Once the flipper is going down the ball will go straight on the vector is it on till it hits the flipper at the resting position, and deflect to the drain. If you let it hit the flipper while it is up and still, it will deflect towards the base of the flipper and you will catch it. It wont be a dead catch, but sometimes almost, if the flippers elastic setting is low enough.
When I started doing this, with mmpac and the first mods, I had to have VP handle the downswing, but I learned how to inject the value into the solFlip code that is taken from the core.vbs file, and over-rides that code. Every mod posted uses the SolFlip VPM code for the flippers. Upper flippers don't have the triggers, but a btf problem with them would be very rare, I have not seen one in these many years, and if it did happen, the ball would still be in play, so I don't bother with them. All lower flippers, or flippers that block a drain does have the triggers, some tables have two, some three, and some four triggers. Each trigger in the aflip pair will operate both flippers in that pair.
I recommend highly that you not only turn of sticky keys, but also turn off filter keys when playing VP.
 

elton

Pinball Wizard
RE: Replies ....

You're still here then as well ....

.... as much as I recognise the effort you've put into mmpac, I'm afraid its not one I like particularly - mainly 'cos I don't understand it!

Don't want to talk about lies - been 'nuff said by you to fill a book. So I'll pass on that.

As far as the core issues - I don't have any issues with the few tables I play. I have other issues but I get around them one way or another. Since I've retired I've never been so busy, so VP takes a backseat.

Strange, but I'd rather comment or chew the fat on forums than play VP these days.

But it is silent.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
RE: Replies ....

mmpac is typical. Drop all the targets, as many times as you can, shoot the lanes, as many times as you can. keep the ball in play, score big points.

As far as the theme, it's no more complex than any other. Collect moves, Light a Pacman, light them all, get a special. Light aggressive, Play the maze game eat the ghosts if you are aggressive, run from them otherwise. It's pinball and Pacman. The pinball part is ordinary pinball, the Pacman part is ordinary Pacman with a different layout.
What seems to be the hardest thing to grasp, I gather from the feedback over the years is the left flipper to select a direction, and the right flipper to move the Pacman, but I can not explain it in any simpler terms than that.

I don't care too much for VP myself, as a simulation of a real machine. I do enjoy it as a computer game though, and I enjoy improving it. Anyone that says he has no issues with VP though, does not even know about the real counterpart, or the basic workings of a real machine. I have never been complacent, and every one else in this community is. EVERYONE. I am not building a real machine, but I am building a simulation that plays as close to a real machine as I can. I find it unnecessary, building one, but if i am going to build one, and it is not original, then it is going to be as close to a real one as I can get. If I play one, it better play well, I don't care who made it, or how good it looks. If I can make it play better, and I have never seen one that I could not do so with, I will fix it or trash it. People are stuck on this flipper thing. My table was indeed broke, when PacDude took the code to speed up the downswing out of the core, because there is no way in hell that I am going to increase the flipper speed to suck speeds as he uses, it is unrealistic, ugly, and not needed.
His tables has that speed up in the script, and you know damn well that he would not play them with the speeds that he releases them with. Maybe you don't, that is that complacency thing again. With his tables you can go ahead and slow the flipper to a more realistic speed and you will not have the problem, with mine and others that relied on that core.vbs to take care of it you can not.
So, what I did is make it better. You are not going to notice any speed changes until they are needed, and you are going to be able to know where the ball is going to go. PacDude's tables are poor in that respect, but they are adjustable because he uses the fix I came up with in the form that I first presented it. The core fix was to make the fix a default thing and because he don't need it because he is complacent, and as he puts it, 'anyone that is not too stupid to use those speeds' will not have a problem either, we no longer have it as a default. the default speed for a flipper .05 and the default is not fast enough that the speedup removal that replaced the speedup, that replaced the slowdown is going to help in the least.
Therefore he is hording the fix for himself, and I don't like that. He should not have my fix in his script, but he does. You should have the fix in the core, but you don't.

Now the tables that he released are setting on my hard drive, and some at savefile.com already with a new and better fix, and as a bonus, flippers that you can aim a ball at a target with, not just a damn bank, hoping that if you hit the bank enough that you will drop all the targets in it. He forced me to put the flipper code in my script, and I don't like that either, but it turned out better in the end because I for one, am not complacent.
 

elton

Pinball Wizard
RE: Replies ....

Thanks for the explanation of the 'maze' thing - I didn't know that (not that I've really tried to understand it and I've never seen a real machine in my life). So I may give it another go.

The core element, speeds of flippers, angles of tables and other variable adjustments that members talk about is over my head. I want to play the tables that's all. If I had the knowledge to build one I certainly wouldn't have the time to make a pretty good copy of a real machine - and I'd want it to be damn close to the real thing or there'd be no point in doing so IMO.

I know Bob liked what you'd done to his ASM table with the adjustments and so forth so I have no doubts you're good at the tweaks but would I be able to know the difference - I seriously doubt it. I enjoy playing pinball but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm any good. Bit like golf really, play loads but suck bigtime. The important factor is personal enjoyment. Period.

Anyway, I've just finished the year-end financial paperwork for my local club and desperately need a drink. So I'll bid you goodnight.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
RE: Replies ....

I know you would be able to know the difference. Just as sure as you would know the difference if you would try a two foot put with a full power swing. I can't link you to the mods though, you would have to download mmpac from the link in it's thread and look at the table info for the web site. Your scores will go up on every table there. You will have the control you can not get from .137 for flipper speeds up and down. Most have .08 to .1 for up and .014 to .02 for the downswing.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I have never been complacent, and every one else in this community is. EVERYONE.

Excuse me?

Shockman, I am getting a little tired of you hijacking every goddamn thread. I get it, I got it the first time, and I get it every single time you have mentioned it over the last 6 months. Enough already, it doesn't matter if you are right or not, it just gets pretty tiring having it thrown in our faces every chance you get.

Now, just for Elton:
Someone sent me the Ultracade image links, and 2 things struck me. The first is they are disappointing from a product point of view, and the second thing is how easy it is to pick out my own techniques one after the other, and there's a couple things there only I do.

Upset? No, imitation is the greatest form of flattery, the only thing that makes me the slightest upset is if they did in fact look at my game, and then use them for a commercial product, at the very least, they could have used my current techniques, not the ones I stopped doing and replaced 2 years ago with better ones.

I can understand that a couple authors may be upset, but I expected this a long time ago. There was never any intention to use the actual graphics in the first place, those contracts were intended to remove any legal problems more than anything else. I haven't seen Kurt's UC versions, but I was rather surprised at some of the other ones.

To be honest, I like my new game style a lot more than UC's, and I don't see much in the way of making me shell out 5-6k for something when I can just make a better version myself even with a older version of VP. Not speaking for the authors that "contributed", but I would guess they feel the same way.

That interesting enough for you Elton? ;)
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
Yeah, well shiva, I'm a little tired of my posts being called hijacking. This is a thread that is wide open per design. A spark for conversation, and I joined in when it was said that nothing important is ever discussed. I don't have a rule that says that I can not repeat myself. I don't have a rule that says I can't join in in any thread. There is forum rules however that limit that, and I'm sure that is what is on your mind. Complacent? yes, everyone. You, at least as much as the next guy. Right and wrong does matter, and my work being taken advantage of is what I am all about. I never said I wanted credit for anything, but when anyone has their work taken away or credit for it taken, then I will speak up, unlike you, and the rest. Yes, I think you are at least as complacent as the rest.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Sorry shockman, but what a freaking joke of a statement. I've been put on everyones "evil" list for speaking my mind in the first place. To make matters worse, I'm even more "evil" now in some peoples mind not because of what I have said, but because time has proven me to be right, and there's a lot of people that just can't stand that fact. So much so that certain people will slam my talent and my work as a designer automatically, just because it's me.

Nowdays, I don't care anymore what people say or think. People can say whatever the hell they want to, and just as many people can believe them if they want to, and apply that to my table designs and releases. All it does is make me less likely to release anything, because after all, I'm not the one losing out on the deal. I will still make them anyway, no matter what anyone says, even if they are for myself.

Actually, not going to VPF for a year and a half has just made me better. Though I'm not up on the latest techniques, all it has done is made me create my own, and not having to put up with the excess garbage there has done wonders, as I am finally starting to renew my interest in making tables, though under my terms.

BUT. I see the same garbage here now, and coming from you. I no longer care about whatever injustice you may have had done to you, life's tough, I'm sure other people have had a lot worse done to them, but unlike you, don't constantly repeat it in every goddamn post for the last 6 months either. It loses it's importance because it's repeated so much, and after a while, people just don't care.

As one table dev to another, how about just dropping it, and make tables? Life's a lot easier if you just ignore the people that deserve to be ignored, because in the scheme of things, their opinions are usually colored anyway, and therefore doesn't matter.

Do you want to be ignored like that? I learnt that lesson myself, and for good or bad, is the reason I won't, and can't, be a part of the community anymore. At least I can look at myself in the mirror and know who I am, which is far more important than any trivial matter that crops up here.
 

elton

Pinball Wizard
shiva said:
[That interesting enough for you Elton? ;)

Not bad at all.

I like the Ultracade images a lot. Clean and fresh. Do they look like a pinball table .. no, not really. But they do look like a video representation of what a pinball table might look like. So I like them. It all comes down to personal taste.

Judging by the comments at VPF on the images most authors either don't like them, feel they could be improved with their own personal tweaks or by a few that have photographic memory of the original tables and are making very specific comparisons.

I'll call a spade an spade. I like them but I'm not trying to compare them. It's an overpriced game that's available that I am unlikely ever to see or indeed play. :(

Thanks for contributing to the thread that I started because there was apparently no new threads being written; I appreciate your earlier comments about having nothing interesting to say which is why this was placed in the Junkyard to illicit some activity - no slight on anyone implied or intended. :)
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I expected more personally. As people who do this as a hobby, we can get away with not being totally accurate, me just as worse as anyone, but when it's a commercial product, and is aimed at the arcades, you kind of expect accuracy, or at least a bit more than what I see.

I can image what some people are saying though. But I can also guess that reality has finally hit them squarely between the eyes. :)

Looking at the Sorcerer image, I couldn't help but note that the UC version is actually closer to my old 6 year old version in appearance that PacDude's. Oh, the irony of it all... ;)

Clean and Fresh is not exactly better, if not done right, it becomes cold and sterile instead. Thank God it's not a render clone, but overall, it looks like it was done by people who really haven't played pinball all that much before they got the job.

They have a higher resolution, that is pretty apparent with the wire ramps, and they attempted to put a texture on the rubbers, but they still are not rounded, and the textures are very bleached and look wrong. The end result is it looks worse than a lot of the existing tables.

I picked up ebd after 6 months, and using it as a test bed for my new slate of first generation techniques. I may not be a "professional" but I like my newest table a lot more, and after working a few hours today, I'm a lot closer to a realistic rounded rubber complete with textured graphics, using the "old" VP with it's lower resolution, than what they have done, with their "new" vp. That shouldn't be the case with them.

Actually, screw it, my table is better anyway. :)
 

scapino

Pinball Wizard
Yeah, it looks like they completly dumped using reels. I'm pretty sure my version of Strikes and Spares and Xenon, on the original Ultra Pin release are as I made them, but it looks as though from now on they are going a different direction.

I had allready finished updating Fathom and EBC for them, but it appears they are not going to use them.

Here is an image of the final version of Fathom I sent them months ago.



Its kinda sad to see that it will not see the light of day, buts thats buisness...... :)

Kurt

shiva said:
I expected more personally. As people who do this as a hobby, we can get away with not being totally accurate, me just as worse as anyone, but when it's a commercial product, and is aimed at the arcades, you kind of expect accuracy, or at least a bit more than what I see.

I can image what some people are saying though. But I can also guess that reality has finally hit them squarely between the eyes. :)

Looking at the Sorcerer image, I couldn't help but note that the UC version is actually closer to my old 6 year old version in appearance that PacDude's. Oh, the irony of it all... ;)

Clean and Fresh is not exactly better, if not done right, it becomes cold and sterile instead. Thank God it's not a render clone, but overall, it looks like it was done by people who really haven't played pinball all that much before they got the job.

They have a higher resolution, that is pretty apparent with the wire ramps, and they attempted to put a texture on the rubbers, but they still are not rounded, and the textures are very bleached and look wrong. The end result is it looks worse than a lot of the existing tables.

I picked up ebd after 6 months, and using it as a test bed for my new slate of first generation techniques. I may not be a "professional" but I like my newest table a lot more, and after working a few hours today, I'm a lot closer to a realistic rounded rubber complete with textured graphics, using the "old" VP with it's lower resolution, than what they have done, with their "new" vp. That shouldn't be the case with them.

Actually, screw it, my table is better anyway. :)
 

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shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Yeah kurt, sort of makes you wonder what kind of business they are as well.

Even though I wasn't part of this, I'm kind of glad I'm not. Would have broken my heart to see a game I've done like Playboy done the way they would do it.

I think they missed the boat here. I don't see a lot of collectors that are gonna rush in and beat down their doors to buy this, I guess I can add the word underwhelming
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
In my view, it is not the quality of the tables that make UP a hard sell, it is the price
At $6000 for an UltraPin, compared to $4500 for a brand new Stern
that is a big price difference
if it was $3000, and more tables (10+) then I could see it sell

but at the moment, I cannot see them selling many at all

Pete
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
I would pay $2500, if it had an editor.
You could build your own cabinet for far less than $6000, with monitors and a computer.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
I watched the videos posted at VPF, and I don't see much new. VP can do the bouncing thing, and that's all it showed. The kicker holes work just like VP, like a 10 megaquad powered magnet. VP can do the elasticity that that shows. I would have liked to see the flippers and the pops working.
The cabinet is nice though. If I had one, I would strip out UC VP, if I had to, to install VP 7.
 

ArcAngel

Pinball Nudger
Things are gonna liven up in here - QUICK like now....

Shockman said:
http://www.savefile.com/files/367430]
These files will stay up, as long as the btf fix is not in the core.vbs file. You could have talked about lies, that I asked for the core to be stripped, that the code being in PacDude's tables was unnecessary, that .137 is much better than .135, that I did not contact anyone on the VPM team, that .140 is the value I use...

Shocky, will you never stop being the complete and utter fuckwit asshole you currently are? WHO THE FUCK CARES about some stupid value that you, and yes, ONLY YOU, consider priceless???

In 5 years time, ONLY ONE GODDAMN PERSON WILL - and that being you Shocky.

Since you've gone and pulled a Nicky Special now, and for that I've lost ALL respect for you and there's ZERO chance it'll come back because of your prevaling attitude about some MINISCULE little value.

GET A LIFE!

And why doesn't PD have the RIGHT to say NO to mods? He does have that right, doesn't he? Oh wait, I forgot - no he doesn't, not when some fuckwit with the name of Shockman comes along and outright BLACKMAILS PD into trying to get the flipper fix get put back into the core.vbs.

Jesus Shockman - you need to get your priorities in CHECK dude!
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
RE: Things are gonna liven up in here - QUICK like now....

That MINUSCULE little value was the difference between my table working, and not working ArcAngle. There is no way I could fix it. NO WAY, do you understand? NO way to fix it for those that 'upgraded' to this new core.vbs file. Anyone that has one of the thousands of copies of it that downloads this new core thinking it is an upgrade is going to have a ball through the flipper with it. It's a broken table 'Angel, not a numerical value.
VP is not about this. VP is about each and every one deciding for our selves what speed they want to have the flippers work at, and it is not stupid to use slower values and know that there is a safety net there so you can use any number you want.

PacDude did not come up with the fix and he did not put it into the core.

And why doesn't PD have the RIGHT to say NO to mods?

So Why do I have no right to say no to it being taken out?

He did not make it better. He did not leave it the same, as he says. He brought back the btf problem for everyone that does not use these super speed flipper up speeds. He made it worse.

And why doesn't PD have the RIGHT to say NO to mods?

He did have the right to not put into the release threads and the table info threads that these are free to mod, but he did put that in there, and the way I understand it when I read it is they are free to mod.

I have given out close to 300 of them, over 150 on savefile.com in the last day alone, and many through other means, and not one person has said that they were not better. In fact everyone that has said anything at all says they are indeed better. And they indeed are.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
RE: Things are gonna liven up in here - QUICK like now....

And I am not BLACKMAILING him. He can leave it out. I hope he does. I'm just saying that if he puts it back I will take down the mods of his files. I would rather keep them up. This way is way better than the old way anyway, and way.
 

ArcAngel

Pinball Nudger
Re: RE: Things are gonna liven up in here - QUICK like now..

Shockman said:
Anyone that has one of the thousands of copies of it that downloads this new core thinking it is an upgrade is going to have a ball through the flipper with it. It's a broken table 'Angel, not a numerical value.

LMFAO! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You have got to be fucking kidding me Shocky. A BROKEN table???? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

That's funny - that really is. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And yes - when you break it down - it IS a numerical value you damn jackass!

Apparently your definition and my definition of "broken" are two different things. MY definiton of "broken" is "not working". Since ball through flippers DON'T cause the table to crash, nor do they happen 95% of the time, it ain't broke!

All you are doing is crying (yes - CRYING) like a damn 2-year old that you have the right to mod tables because someone won't give what you feel is the deserved credit for the "fix", so you are simply seeking attention from those who will listen.

I'm sorry, but I don't see your mods as "fixes" - I see them as a LAME attempt at getting some attention.

So you've "given" out 300? Good for you! Want a cookie?
 
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