920

[Shockman]

I don't even know who the VPM team is. I download VPM from VPF, I get all information from it from VPF. I posted the fix at VPF, for the members of VPF and the ones that visit only to get tables. It was a contribution AS a VPF member for VPF members done through VPF, hosted by VPF, and discussed as far as I knew only at VPF. The fact that VPF staffers was not a VPM team members make as much difference with VP and VPM support files as it does with tables.
What makes you think I contacted AJ and not the other way around? I have contacted him, he has contacted me. You could say that we are in contact. What you can't say is that I am not a member there, only that Shockman is not, for obvious reasons. You can block my IP again and he can unblock it again. Did you ever wonder how my $ came back when the staff took it away, AJ did it, and contacted me.
He contacted me again when I contributed to shivasite as well and when it went under. He restored my IP for me not once, but again. You can search addresses again, like you use to and ban Bonus2X and my IP again, and erase the work the AJ puts into his own site again, or you could leave him alone for once to do more important things. Or I can tell him that with the cat out of the bag now, that we might as well just get Shockman back up there.

 

[Shockman]

The staff at VPF thinks AJ, Randy, and table builders are abandoning them, and getting the membership to believe that. The truth is that the staff is abandoning those folks.

 

[StevOz]

Get off your high horse already does the guy who first used drop walls to animate pop bumpers insist on being credited in every release that uses that feature or the many other techniques that are included in many tables that once someone discovered?

Don't even know who the VPM team is, wow and you want credit for your little discovery, amazing!

Look Shockman we can and will ban any user if need be when they screw up.

 

[StevOz]

Yeah right, the staff think, like you know our minds as well, give it a rest you hack. :D

 

[Shockman]

You are amazing 'Oz. Discover dropwalls? You have got to be kidding. Dropwalls is a feature in the program, that was announced. Flipper downswing was not announced and indeed missed for years. No, I don't want credit, I want it there, where it belongs. For another time, (with you 'Oz I can't promise it will need to be the last) PacDude, did not discover this, he did not contribute to it, and he did not come up with the number that would work for a default. He deserves no credit, but that don't mean that we don't deserve to have it if he can't take the credit for it.

 

[StevOz]

Maybe all credit should goto BJ and Proginoskes who researched and created this reference file.

 

[Shockman]

VP6, I think not, 'Oz. My finding came at or just before Dogfood 5. The point is that no one had thought of it before and was resigned to the fact that the problem was unfixable. Flipper speed was known at the time but no one thought to add a different value to the return, or even what good that would do. The core had it slowed down and was adding to the problem, but no one had prevented the balls through the flipper before. I discovered that the flippers if going faster than the ball does prevents a collision, thus the error. Credit anyone you want to 'Oz. All you have to do is type 'I was the one that came up with a method that prevented the balls through the flipper' then you can credit yourself! because I'm sure if you would type it you would believe it.

 

[bob]

Bovine manure to you to bob.

No bob you are wrong, there is a right way and are wrong way to conduct oneself in such matters, the wrong way is usually the easiest and incorrect path, based upon assumptions without confirmations.

Ok Steve, you believe these mods to be unauthorised, I disagree, but since you believe it and you are a staffer at VPF then you must follow the VPF guidelines below at VPF...

9. MODIFICATIONS TO EXISTING TABLES
No unauthorized mods, hacks that break protection locks, hacks of VP or VPINMAME .exe files, or links to sites that allow posts and release threads about hacked tables will be allowed on vpforums.com. This includes links to discussions about unauthorized mods. The sole exception is a link to a site which also hosts official versions of the same table. This exception at least allows the users a choice as to which table to download.

This means all links to Pinball Nirvana must be deleted from VPF.

Either they're authorised or not authorised... You make the call. BTW, PD's tables are not currently hosted on this site.

 

[Shockman]

This site does, Bob.
http://pinballnirvana.com/Pacdude/
But it does not host mods.

The only person I know that is currently breaking rule #9 would be PacDude.

The fact that this site does not host mods excludes it from the rule and the exception, and leaves it as a site which allows links and discussion of mods, but not unauthorized mods, or hacked tables. This site in fact does not allow links, discussion, nor files that are unauthorized. PN & VPF would have to re-define not only the term, but the definition of the word authorization, and they can't do that without an act of congress.

So in effect I disagree with you on all points, respectfully. It hosts PacDude's tables, it does not host my mods, and PN does not fit into sites that is governed by the no link to rule.

The only thing I see in terms of that rule being broken is in PacDudes hacking of VPM. 'Oz might argue that it is not the .exe but he has argued that the intent is more important than the letter of the rule. To hack the support files is to hack the function of VPM. If not, then I'm sure he would have no objection to me posting a copy at VPF that has the fading lights taken out and saying that it should replace the one that does, and that the feature is no longer needed because the lights will fade now, even without the code. Or a copy that gives me credit for the whole script and everything in it. And it should matter not that it would be untrue because the balls will fall through the flipper on a default table now, just as surly as lights will not fade without that code.

'Oz does not believe it Bob. He knows English as well as we do. He knows that to write something in such language is to publish it.

 

[Shockman]

And I am being overly generous here, well there^. VPM will not work without the support files so I would say that VPM is more than the .exe.
Try it without the .vbs (support files) it wont work. VPM is a collection of files so it not just intent, but the letter of the rule that PacDude is breaking openly and it is SANCTIONED by VPF in the way of the rule being overlooked in his case, and further more by their defending it. This is not an issue with the VPM team. There is no reason for the staff of VPF to tell me that I should contact another entity and complain about the rules of VPF being broken. That is ridiculous. There is no reason why my work would not apply under this rule and his would.

 

[bob]

This site does, Bob.
http://pinballnirvana.com/Pacdude/
But it does not host mods.

That's not really on this site, you can't find that address or those tables on this sites downloads page . PD had his tables removed from here.... But he uploaded them to the space that JPH gave him when he frequented here.

http://www.pinballnirvana.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=UpDownload&file=index

 

[StevOz]

Bovine manure to you to bob.

No bob you are wrong, there is a right way and are wrong way to conduct oneself in such matters, the wrong way is usually the easiest and incorrect path, based upon assumptions without confirmations.

Ok Steve, you believe these mods to be unauthorised, I disagree, but since you believe it and you are a staffer at VPF then you must follow the VPF guidelines below at VPF...

9. MODIFICATIONS TO EXISTING TABLES
No unauthorized mods, hacks that break protection locks, hacks of VP or VPINMAME .exe files, or links to sites that allow posts and release threads about hacked tables will be allowed on vpforums.com. This includes links to discussions about unauthorized mods. The sole exception is a link to a site which also hosts official versions of the same table. This exception at least allows the users a choice as to which table to download.

This means all links to Pinball Nirvana must be deleted from VPF.

Either they're authorised or not authorised... You make the call. BTW, PD's tables are not currently hosted on this site.

Err, bob baby, this aint VPF. :D

 

[bob]

Err, bob baby, this aint VPF. :D

Steve, I swear you're getting dumber every day. Reread the post or have another drink.... Your mind is so fried, I think I'm going to just forget the whole thing. You & Shocky have a nice forum here

 

[StevOz]

No bob Nirvana does not and will not host such mods. Sorry you're wrong again, also all of PDs tables are hosted here.

http://pinballnirvana.com/Pacdude/

He has full FTP access here and could delete the entire site here with that access, so I'd say they are hosted here.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

i'd say that there is something important being left out here... and that is the fair right to change one's mind.

if PD decided that he no longer was interested in shockman modding his tables and releasing them then that statement should be given some respect IMO. it's not PD's fault that some of the info files included with his tables are years old.

if PD changed his mind about something and let the other person know explicitly (which we know he did from his posts here) then there's not much else he can do short of updating every single table he's ever released and then re-uploading them.

is that fair to him just to get one annoying fly off his back?

this is faintly reminsicent of the time i said to shockman "AJ can bail you out if he wants to" and later AJ doing just that without consulting with either pete or myself. my mind had changed since the time i made that statement but shockman immediately used it as a 'lie' i made as soon as AJ later restored shockman's account and then disappeared as usual.

both cases are basically just more evidence that shockman is still a piece of shit and standing up for the rights of a piece of shit is always a dodgy business.

 

[Shockman]

There is something very important being left out of your responses as well. What about PacDudes modding of VPM without my authorization?

this is faintly reminsicent of the time i said to shockman "AJ can bail you out if he wants to" and later AJ doing just that without consulting with either pete or myself. my mind had changed since the time i made that statement but shockman immediately used it as a 'lie' i made as soon as AJ later restored shockman's account and then disappeared as usual.

What is a lie then? Talking about leaving something important out, you also said that you would not stand in the way. If you had changed your mind then you should have said so before I did what you suggested, with a promise being involved.

Also,
I had to redo my tables, and that is what you said I should do. "Just re-release them with the fix" Why do you think it is fair that I have to re-release my tables and not PacDude. That makes no sense. Nor does this,

it's not PD's fault that some of the info files included with his tables are years old.

Who's fault is it then?

And why should everyone have a 'fair right' to 'change their minds' when they say something to me, and I should not have a fair right to change my mind and be a member and not bring up the past?

You are damned right '.b
There is something important being left out here.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

lol

 

[StevOz]

Now Shockman is the author of VPM too, that's some crazy shit.

Let's face it Shockman you would not know fair if it bit you on the ass.

Of course we know about your account at VPF, but decided to cut you some slack, though screw up and we will ban you, can't say fairer then that.

 

[bob]

Like I said before, I'm not supporting Shockman, you could ban him for a 100 different things, I just don't agree with this unauthorised mod stuff.... In PD's latest release he still says....

-Mods are allowed (as usual with my releases), but if not only for your own use, please label your tables as such, both in this table info section and the table and zip file names and leave my credits intact. I'd prefer you keep your own RevHistory file with a different name, but including the previous entries prior to your mod. Petty modding for public consumption is discouraged, however and modding is unauthorized when used for illegal or negative purposes.

He changed it from previous releases, but it is now subjective as to what is "Petty modding for public consumption is discouraged, however and modding is unauthorized when used for illegal or negative purposes" I mean who is to decide what is petty or negative? Obviously he thinks he'll decide, so why include the statement, they are free to mod, in the 1st place?

Should be people allowed to change their minds? Yes and no is the answer to this question. What if the following questions came about as a result of someone changing their mind?

Should Randy be allowed to pull VP from public use?

Should Destruk be allowed to pull all of his work from AJ's table page?

Should PD be an admin at VPF?

Should Shocky be allowed at VPF if he's modding tables that are unauthorised?

@Steve... Show me on the Pinball Nirvana Download page where PD's tables are. That link is meaningless as PD is just using space provided by JPH. I believe PD demanded his work to be removed from PN.

 

[StevOz]

No PD did not demand his work be removed, he removed it himself at that time.

What if PD updated all his tables with a new table info, say no mods would that make all those supposed in your opinion prior mods authorized or not authorized?

You see it just comes back to doing the right thing, asking the author for permission, if he denies that permission, then that's that.

 

[Shockman]

Just say that you think PacDude did the right thing, and had every right in removing the work I contributed to the VPM support files 'Oz.

 

[StevOz]

I'm not saying he did the right thing, I'd say he abused his position as maintainer of that file, but as appointed maintainer of that file he has the right to change it even if you or I consider these changes to be bad ones.

To me it's no biggie and I'm not directly involved or effected by it, if I was, I'd contact the pinmame team and ask they consider restoring such changes, modding his tables is not going to bring about that change.

Oh and I suggest you do a little research about the pinmame team, try the search feature at VPF, it's really quite easy to use.

 

[bob]

Your arguments are bogus, but there really isn't but a few people left in the community that give a crap about anything other than downloading tables, it's just that if YOU believe your arguments, then how in the hell can you allow Shocky back on VPF? You, the person that quotes those guidelines all the time.... You, the zenmaster of zenidiocy...

 

[StevOz]

Well, we didn't exactly allow Shocky back in at VPF, he just gate crashed the place and we thought well so long as he behaves we'll see how it goes, we have asked him to remove his mods as a sign of good faith, so we'll see.

 

[shiva]

Because bob, and to quote a famous expression as the mantra of VPF...

"All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others."