A Statement from Noah Fentz

You know what i would have done in his place?

I would have asked the community (which means the regulars) how we should go about this and then tried to build up the place together. Together is the keyword because that way it would have been sure that the place will be enjoyable by everyone.

The notion that 'you cant please everyone' is simply absurd in this case. I think we all had agreed pretty fast that we need a unique name and then just add as many features to the place as possible. Perhaps even have different members take care of different sections, (according to whatever they know most about), like is the case in many other forums i visit. There, all problems solved, everyone happy.

But why do it like that when there is a way to complicate and screw up matters beyond redemption. Guess the good old fashioned reasonable way is just not in style anymore these days,...:roll:
 
You know, there's one thing that had me bothered for a while, Phoenixx.....

Why did you register over at VPForums.org?

The McD
 
The notion that 'you cant please everyone' is simply absurd in this case.

Kevin, you honestly think that?

Jeeze man, most of the members of VPF.com couldn't agree on the colour of shit. :(
 
Hrum... http://vpforums.org/index.php?showuser=1609

Interesting. Now if you take into account that this member here had Iran as his flag, "Fuck" as his favorite pin and registered a dual account, both times using a proxy... Highly interesting. I find it hard to believe that this doesn't stem from you. I'm starting to dig up some nice evidence in this stuff, and I only scratched the surface.

The McD
 
Kevin, you honestly think that?
Yes, otherwise i wouldnt have said it. (After all this is not a joking matter.)

What significant and really important issue other than the name do you think could have come up? Personally i cant think of one damn thing, since the rest is not so important that anyone really would have had reason to make a big fuss over it,...
 
Addition, .... do you recall the 'colour' of the white lights on a PD table. Hell that ran to about 16 bloody pages of insults and disagreement - of which you and PD were the main antagonists.

So I suppose agreeing on a new domain name would be so much easier wouldn't it now. Come on, truthfully answer that.

Personally, I dispair of the whole business but am glad there are alternative 'sites' to go because PN is becoming the moral highground and I simply disagree with much of what is being posted. Perhaps peeps have more time on their hands than I do and I'm 'retired :)

I do not believe that a common consensus would be found regardless of the name. A split in members is inevitable and perhaps we should be grateful for that. It clears the air in both camps.
 
Hrum... http://vpforums.org/index.php?showuser=1609

Interesting. Now if you take into account that this member here had Iran as his flag, "Fuck" as his favorite pin and registered a dual account, both times using a proxy... Highly interesting. I find it hard to believe that this doesn't stem from you. I'm starting to dig up some nice evidence in this stuff, and I only scratched the surface.

The McD

Believe what you want, i told you it wasnt me and that i dont go there.

If somebody thinks this is funny, be my guest, i however am too old for such kindergarten stuff and i dont have a copyright on the name 'Phoenixx',...
 
And I still don't believe you. Nor do I believe you got VP9 that early.

The McD
 
Addition, .... do you recall the 'colour' of the white lights on a PD table. Hell that ran to about 16 bloody pages of insults and disagreement - of which you and PD were the main antagonists.
I fail to see the relevance, that was an entirely different thing.


So I suppose agreeing on a new domain name would be so much easier wouldn't it now. Come on, truthfully answer that.
Obviously it would. Because anything else than an already existing name never would have lead to a problem. And this is the entire point im making here.

A split in members is inevitable and perhaps we should be grateful for that. It clears the air in both camps.
Sorry to hear that from you. Because this is exactly the kind of attitude that is totally counterproductive to any community, since a community is never better off when it is split in 'camps'. Personally i would do anything to avoid that. I leave it to you to decice who would be doing the community a better favour,...
 
And I still don't believe you.
I told you, believe what you want. Why would i care? If you had half a brain youd know by now that i have no desire to go there,...

Nor do I believe you got VP9 that early.
Ask NanoTech (who sent it to me) and stop yapping at my heels, please,...
 
I fail to see the relevance, that was an entirely different thing.

No is is exactly the same - it was an example of a disagreement between primarily 2 people who couldn't/wouldn't agree on the colour white as related to a light. I mention this only to illustrate that while people might think it is easy to agree on something (especially a colour in this case) the reality is something quite different. So perhaps there were 60 active posters at VPF and you believe that they'd be able to concur on a new site name. I disagree.


Sorry to hear that from you. Because this is exactly the kind of attitude that is totally counterproductive to any community, since a community is never better off when it is split in 'camps'. Personally i would do anything to avoid that. I leave it to you to decice who would be doing the community a better favour,...


I believe Noah opened the new site with the best intentions and to provide the community with another place to go. A place that would at least be maintained - unlike the VPF that was neglected for long periods of time. The main split between those who like the new place irrespective of the name, and those that for admirable reasons chose to disagree is most unfortunate. And we agree that the community benefits with the strengths of everyone. However, if this 'split' in people does nothing other than keep all the negative Noah comments and general beefs out of the VPF.ORG threads I for one will be content.

To see VPF.COM ripped apart by the shenanigans of Shocky, Kinsey and others who also couldn't agree on the colour of shit nearly forced me away from the hobby.

So in the short term it may be for the best for everyone in the naysayers stay away .... not that I believe they will.

Anyway, more than enough has been written about this .... I am quitting. :sob:









I should have added that I do believe that VPF and PN are serving the general community well and long may that continue. But the continues sniping at the other site is now well old IMO. Before anyone writes to say that it is a just cause - I'm too old and tired to care.

Be well everyone and lets agree to disagree on this matter.
 
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Why guess what, that's exactly what I'm doing. Asking Nanotech that is.

You fail to see the relevance of that 16 page thread? It was a expansion on the point that the community can not decide unanimously. So is deciding on a name easier than deciding on a color?

I say, if we asked the community, we'd have this same shitstorm that we have now. I could bet a lot on that. Are you sure that the entire community would decide that VPForums.org is a bad name? Would the community be able to decide on a new one? I say not. There has been a large amount of this kind of splitting in the past, there have always been people that kept digging it up. People that could not let it rest.

It is really interesting to see how many people support the new site and how many oppose it. You might say that that doesn't make it right. But still, it's interesting to see the ratio. You say you hate the establishing of camps, yet you and a few others build up their very own group. I still wonder how many of you believe that this continuous bitching will actually do something. So far, I see no accomplishments.

The McD
 
No is is exactly the same - it was an example of a disagreement between primarily 2 people who couldn't/wouldn't agree on the colour white as related to a light.
Elton, not that it would be of any relevance to the topic at hand, but if you must use any 'comparisons', at least get the facts straight. This wasnt a disagreement by any means, it was PD telling me that a normal lightbulb would not have an orange tone. He was telling me that i would not see what i am de-facto seeing and what everyone who has seen a lightbulb before knows anyway. You know this is bullshit, i know this is bullshit, everyone knows this is bullshit, and that was what i kept telling him. My only mistake was to repeat me so often since there was not really anything to argue about to begin with,...


I mention this only to illustrate that while people might think it is easy to agree on something (especially a colour in this case) the reality is something quite different. So perhaps there were 60 active posters at VPF and you believe that they'd be able to concur on a new site name. I disagree.
It is your right to disagree so be my guest. Still i dont think that a name would have posed any problem because as long as its not that of an already existing page, why would anyone have cared in the 1st place? The people of what was to become PinballUnlimited publically asked for suggestions for a name too, and as you might remember, after they chose PinballUnlimited the topic was off the table for good. Now why should it have been different in this case? If the person opening the forum had just chosen a unique name on his own i bet you the topic never would have come up in any shape or form ever. Why would it?


I believe Noah opened the new site with the best intentions and to provide the community with another place to go.
May be, but it was still wrong to do it that way.

To see VPF.COM ripped apart by the shenanigans of Shocky, Kinsey and others who also couldn't agree on the colour of shit nearly forced me away from the hobby.
So in the short term it may be for the best for everyone in the naysayers stay away
The 'naysayers' would include me as well then i guess. And Anthias and Jon and m4paws and mrschultz and all the others who still have a sense of honor and dignity left too. Well, this is exactly what i meant by considering us 'acceptable collateral damage'. Everyone who doesnt agree is considered dispensable, and in some cases they might even think 'be glad that the idiot is gone'. Well, thats one way of showing appreciation, and one way to get rid of people you dont like. The sad part is that this also says a hell of a lot about a community as a whole, and what it says is not exactly flattering, if you know what i mean,...
 
Why guess what, that's exactly what I'm doing. Asking Nanotech that is.
Do that.

In the meantime let me take away some of the anxiety by posting that lil screeny of mine,...(after all Phoenixx is a notorious liar, so you better ask for proof of anything he says),...i suppose you know what an email with an attachment looks like?

attachment.php



It was a expansion on the point that the community can not decide unanimously. So is deciding on a name easier than deciding on a color?
You really believe that bullshit? BTW, since when must a color be 'decided' on, it was decided long ago that white is white and orange is orange and white is not orange and orange is not white. And believe it or not, the same is still valid today! Cool huh?

I say, if we asked the community, we'd have this same shitstorm that we have now.
Not that i believe for a minute that this claim holds any water at all, but i suppose thats why you thought you better leave all these awefully retarded community members out of it and do it according to whatever floats your boat, right? After all the community cant decide on anything, you said so youself, hence they need someone to make the toughie decisions for them, is that not right?

Boy, im beginning to understand better and better,...this paragraph alone has provided more insight on you people than i ever could have hoped for,...

Are you sure that the entire community would decide that VPForums.org is a bad name?
Are you that thick......WHAT DOES IT MATTER? What does it matter if some think it is O.K. to steal somebody elses forumname? Fact is still that it was NOT THE RIGHT CHOICE and will never be! You get what im saying?

There has been a large amount of this kind of splitting in the past, there have always been people that kept digging it up. People that could not let it rest.
Oh sorry oh longest-of-all-longtime-members, i didnt mean to......no, wait a sec, when did you join again?

You know for somebody who has barely seen anything you are sure running your mouth a hell of a lot. Guess all the real long time members better ask you for advice before they post anything stupid by accident, eh?

It is really interesting to see how many people support the new site and how many oppose it. You might say that that doesn't make it right.
Thats right. It is not right. And this is not a matter of arithmetics, it is a matter of ehtics. Or do they not teach that in fifth or sixth grade or wherever you are? Provided of course you dont still attend kindergarten,...

You say you hate the establishing of camps, yet you and a few others build up their very own group.
No my boy, we didnt build any groups, you people have built a group secluded from us. We are still wanting a place for everyone, which means a place where the entire group feels comfortable. And that is precisely what distingushes us, since you guys think everything is alright as long the bulk goes along with it. Even though you know that even many of those that DO visit your fake VPF dont like how this has been done. In other words it is you people and your actions that split this community. And nothing you ever do or say will change that fact.

I still wonder how many of you believe that this continuous bitching will actually do something. So far, I see no accomplishments.
Which is precisely the problem.

But whats more is that we have finally entered the mocking stage, (ive been waiting for that), a-la "what do you suxzorz want, resistance is futile and you know it and at best we laugh about it". Thanks again for not disappointing me.

What access to the administration panel of some internetforum which 99.99999% of the world doesnt give a SHIT about can do to people is amazing. Can i still call you by your handle or must i address you with "Sir" from now on?:roll:
 

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The sad part is that this also says a hell of a lot about a community as a whole, and what it says is not exactly flattering, if you know what i mean,...

Absolutely agree with you. Not flattering from any side. Yours, theirs, mine, anyones. Just shit. A split community and loads of shit going in all directions from a perspective of what was/is right or wrong from a whole host of strong minded and loyal individuals.

Is this a hobby ..... not for me it isn't. So this is my last words on this topic because I see no point in falling out with anyone over this issue.

Keep well old friend ... we'll converse again over a different topic. I'm off for a Grolsch :)
 
No hard feelings Elton,...twas nice talking to you again,...:)
 
Just a few things I want to say before I leave again:

1) Wonderful, seeing you running down on my age. I could expand on how immature that actually is, but I won't.
2) Just because I didn't take part in that past bullcrap doesn't mean I can learn about it.
3) I don't give a fuck what you call me. Honestly. You can call me whatever you like, I won't take offence in it.
4) Thank you for posting that e-mail. Now I believe you. See? We've gained something. I'm not standing here saying you're a liar. I was saying "I think you're a liar, I'm looking for proof." Now I have that proof, now I believe you. Thanks again.
5) I'm not better than you. Now I might have to apologize: I am slightly insane (been that way for a longer time) and have slight personality-splits. If it may have come off that I said that I am somehow superior to you, I apologize.
6) We might keep this up, and I might even change my opinion. I was pro-namechange the whole time, but since Noah said he won't do it, I wanted to leave it at that. Believe me, if I could, I would have changed the name a long time ago.
7) I'm not trying to put an end to this or something. I just want to find out some truths. I did today, I accomplished something. I now know that you recieved VP9 before us. (Which would lead to the question why you didn't inform us - maybe I missed the post or something - but I'll leave that at that)
Eight) What I ment with you creating your own group was the birth of the VPRespect forums. I can't help but notice that the largest topic over there is the same that is discussed here.
9) Another thing I was wondering about was: How much does your "friendship" (100% irony) with Valamir have to do with this? I read that you even thought at one point that Val was the one behind that, am I correct there? A bit of information I can give you here: Val was the one that was very much against changing the name, I was the one that was for changing it. I don't know how much that swayed Noah in his decision. Your name came into play often there. There is more behind this than I think, but I'm not the one that can look 100% backstage.

All in all, could we at least try to get out of that fucking mocking stage? I'd like to apologize once again and would like to retract the comments that you might have taken the wrong way. Could we at least bury the hatchet?

The McD
 
Just a few things I want to say before I leave again:


6) We might keep this up, and I might even change my opinion. I was pro-namechange the whole time, but since Noah said he won't do it, I wanted to leave it at that. Believe me, if I could, I would have changed the name a long time ago.
7) I'm not trying to put an end to this or something. I just want to find out some truths. I did today, I accomplished something. I now know that you recieved VP9 before us. (Which would lead to the question why you didn't inform us - maybe I missed the post or something - but I'll leave that at that)
Eight) What I ment with you creating your own group was the birth of the VPRespect forums. I can't help but notice that the largest topic over there is the same that is discussed here.
9) Another thing I was wondering about was: How much does your "friendship" (100% irony) with Valamir have to do with this? I read that you even thought at one point that Val was the one behind that, am I correct there? A bit of information I can give you here: Val was the one that was very much against changing the name, I was the one that was for changing it. I don't know how much that swayed Noah in his decision. Your name came into play often there. There is more behind this than I think, but I'm not the one that can look 100% backstage.

The McD

backstage....

Val originally told me that they registered the VPF.Org name to start a fire under AJ's ass.

Val must have shared that chat log with Noah, who immediately contacted me to tell me that wasn't true.

Eventually, I was told (by Noah) that he was "going" to change the name, but then Phoenixx turned the whole situation into something so personal that he wouldn't want to give Phoenixx the satisfaction of being right, so the name wouldn't be changed. This makes all the statements as to why the name won't be changed, merely BS, IMO

Sometimes I think I'm too old for this game, I don't like secrets. I have no problem with people not liking each other, it's a part of life.

VP9 should have been named VP(nein)

I don't even understand why Noah brought the subject up again.
 
All in all, could we at least try to get out of that fucking mocking stage? I'd like to apologize once again and would like to retract the comments that you might have taken the wrong way. Could we at least bury the hatchet?
Perhaps this surprises you, but since you approached me that way i say its alright, no hard feelings, and i assure you i really do mean it when i say it. Just please dont make it a habit, and in case i came on too harsh too, please accept my sincere apologies as well.



To answer a couple of your points; since i never lied to anyone here i would have thought that my word is good enough. Im not the type of guy who runs around telling stories just so i have something to write. Others might do that, no doubt about that, but i am me and not others.


What I ment with you creating your own group was the birth of the VPRespect forums.
I had nothing to do with that. Anthias has created this place, i found out about it only when he posted a link in the shoutbox here. I also didnt ask for admin status there, (in case anyone wonders), he gave it to me because i said if there is anything i can do to help just let me know. I also explicitely distanced myself from doing any moderation since i never wanted to have a moderator position. (And i still dont.) What i do like to do is helping with the layout and content and the technical side of things. The fact that the biggest topic there is about this stupid name business is true, but thats only because the place has currently like 12 members and is practically dead. (Posting-wise.) But then it is not meant to be one of the 'major' places, Anthias simply wanted it to be a 'backup' place and a censor-free 'refuge' where anyone can have their uncensored say on anything that might come up. His main site is PinballOriginals.

Another thing I was wondering about was: How much does your "friendship" (100% irony) with Valamir have to do with this? I read that you even thought at one point that Val was the one behind that, am I correct there?
Nothing at all, i dont think in such terms. As a matter of fact i told Valamir in the other thread explicitely that i have no problem at all with him personally, and of course at that time i really meant it too. A couple of arguments in an internet forum are just not enough for me to consider anyone an 'enemy' or whatever, i can forgive a whole lot in that regard, it just must not become a habit and most of all not cross a certain line which i consider the point of no return. Case in point: Right now it would take a long time and an aweful lot of proof of goodwill and regret for Valamir and Noah to regain the respect i had for them, but thats for a reason, not because we might have had any disputes in the past, these are different things and that is how i treat it. As can everyone expect of a grown up man of almost 40 years.

Val was the one that was very much against changing the name [...] I don't know how much that swayed Noah in his decision.
Which confirms exactly what i was suspecting. Of course up to now i couldnt know if it is actually the case, which is why i formulated it as an assumption and proceeded "...if this is true", etcetera. But now that you told me i see i was pretty much spot on. It just seemed to fit his personality. *shrug*

I don't know how much that swayed Noah in his decision. Your name came into play often there. There is more behind this than I think
I am not at all surprised and i tend to agree. The real question might therefore not be how much Valamirs person has to do with my stance, (which would be nothing), but how much my person has to do with theirs? I can vividly imagine all the PMs and emails that went something like "What better way to get rid of that awefully annoying Phoenixx guy, lets do it lets keep the name", and come to think of it, since you said there was somebody registering with my name via a proxy, maybe you dont even have to look that far to find the one who is behind that either. I mean registering with my own frickin screenname that everyone knows? Paleeze,...dont you think id be a little smarter than that? And using 'Fuck' as my favorite pin? Come on, how un-original is that? And why would i do that anyway? Just to have an account on a forum i want nothing to do with? Makes no sense to me,...however, considering the 'style' i know whom the shoe would fit just perfectly,...

Val was the one that was very much against changing the name, I was the one that was for changing it.
Im glad to hear it, it definitely speaks for you and your character and is one reason why i still have respect for you. I just dont understand why you keep going along with this against your inner conviction. Thats no way to go through life, but then im not here to lecture you so i will leave it at that,...
 
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Eventually, I was told (by Noah) that he was "going" to change the name, but then Phoenixx turned the whole situation into something so personal that he wouldn't want to give Phoenixx the satisfaction of being right, so the name wouldn't be changed.

Well, what more is there to say.

In the end its all my fault - (why am i not surprised :roll:) - Phoenixx has dared to call stealing somebody elses forumname wrong, now the world has to suffer the consequences.

You know if i were you id fucking BAN my sorry ass from this community right here right now. I certainly deserve it. Or better yet, make my ISP cancel my internet on the grounds of malevolent conduct. What does a definite asshole like me have to do in the internet anyway, people like me shouldnt even have the right to view any places frontpage,...


(Im not sure why you posted this Bob, but it must have taken some courage. Im caught between being grateful and considering it your moral obligation to come out with the truth, but thanks in any case,...)
 
Well congratulations Phoenixx, you have just been officially ostracized from the community. You can take heart that only the most talented people get that honour. KidC, Stein, Black, Randy, myself and countless others.

Maybe I should create a little badge for the shop, just for people like us, so that way, the newbies know that we are not to be mentioned, supported, or even talked about in any kind of a positive matter, so that way, we won't get the slightest inclination to ever come back and share the slightest thing with anyone. After all, we don't want to put the remaining dev's noses out of joint do we by hogging some of the praise that rightfully all belongs to them?

Nice to see that nothing ever changes around here.
 
Well congratulations Phoenixx, you have just been officially ostracized from the community. You can take heart that only the most talented people get that honour. KidC, Stein, Black, Randy, myself and countless others.
AJ springs to mind. His providing a forum for 8 years straight doesnt seem to be worth a lot either, even when his forum - negligance on his part or not - is probably the main reason why in 2009 the term 'Visual Pinball' is still being mentioned somewhere in the internet,...

Maybe I should create a little badge for the shop, just for people like us, so that way, the newbies know that we are not to be mentioned, supported, or even talked about in any kind of a positive matter, so that way, we won't get the slightest inclination to ever come back and share the slightest thing with anyone.
I know exactly what you mean. And what have i ever done? Or more to the point; what have i ever done wrong? Frankly i have no idea, but i do know that i am still paying money each and every month to provide a service to the group and help drawing new people into the hobby. Im sure you know the feeling,...
 
sorry guys, but i agree with bob- when you're trying to get someone to admit a mistake, it's generally best to be diplomatic and polite as opposed to accusatory.

it's basically the difference between deciding to be right versus deciding to get something positive done.
 
I've been a long time VP player since I don't know when, heck I didn't know what pinballnirvana was till the VPForums.com ship was sinking and the community directed me to it. The most important objective for the VP community to focus here is to grow and sustain interest in pinball and welcome newbies to continue to help us grow support for this great hobby. I feel if AJ has an issue with VPForums.org using his namebrand let him speak for himself, wasn't it his own deccesion to go a-wall. And if we never hear from him then all this bickering ain't helping the community at all. I personaly feel that using the VPForums name for the new site is helping the community by sustaining the name in spirit in case people go to the old site and find a deadlink atleast they can find their way back with a google search.

But incase this feud is just another twisted hobby, don't let my opinion stop you from your fetish fun. :oops:
 
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