Did We Blow It Up?

[sleepy]

I notice the visitor counts. 11 at pinballnirvana. 16 at the .org.
Sure isn't what it used to be at vpforums.com. Last year at this time vpforums.com saw at least 200 visitors a day. Is Visual Pinball getting old or is it the loss of vpforums.com or both, or is it because, with the changes, people got lost and don't know where to look?
Or is everyone else using BitTorrent or another source?

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

it has definitely seemed a little slow in the postcount at vpf.org lately.
OTOH activity has run in cycles in the VPF scene for years, so nothing new there.

my guess is that since so many users in the scene are merely leeches, so to speak, and VPF was indexed so heavily at so many gaming and warez sites for so long, that it will take more time for PN and vpf.org to achieve that daily traffic figure... assuming it ever does.

AJ russo- bless him and curse him.

 

[bob]

There are a lot of help/error posts at VPF.Org and very little chit chat, the forums and the software are very stagnunt. The guys who have working cabinets seem to be happy as a lark, but everone else seems to be in the dentist chair.

VP9 has confused more people, including authors and the old VP veterans, to make me think people are just checking in once a week to see if there is a new update for VP.

It was a BIG mistake, IMO, to originally tout VP9 as an update to VP8, it should have been called a release of the Ultracade version of VP with Pinball Wizard control settings.... After all, it is a commercial product only released to sell us a product. Folley's stupidity of announcing that VP sucks and FP is where he'll be trying to concentrate his time in making a few Pinball bucks doesn't help the situation either, since the VP9 software appears to be licensed to him and his controller. I always thought Folley would lead us down the path of destruction, but if it wasn't him, it would just have been some other opportunistic jerk.

At the current rate of change, VPF.Org appears well on its way to becoming a specialty forums for building Pinball cabinets. It looks to be a lot of fun, but I'm not even remotely interested in doing it.

I hope I don't sound bitter as I can still enjoy every part of VP that I always did and then some. I can create whatever I want and JPSalas has a stable of tables that are just unbelievable, he makes Pacdude pale in comparison and that was probably more than PD could handle as he became just another author.

To sum it all up.... VPF.Org is still a dumb site name, even more so, since it looks like they are saying it stands for "The Virtual Pinball Forums" on their home page.

 

[shiva]

Give it up guys, you all know the actual reason, because you were all responsible. None of you has chosen to admit it still.

As the expression goes, since you made your own bed, you can lie in it now.

 

[bob]

I admit that I didn't like the beds at shivasite either....

 

[shiva]

Yeah, but at least I can say I didn't have a hand in destroying the entire community unlike certain people.

Foley is right, there is no future in VP, but not because it's worse than FP (Which I could prove him wrong any time I wanted to, so could a couple other authors, if they are still around that is) it's because the entire community not only ended up destroying themselves, they cut off very valuable parts of their anatomy to do so. Greedy, selfish, egotistical, and willing to compromise their own morals for what turned out to be a pitiful amount, and most ended up doing that for free.

You got what you wanted. Simply as that.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Give it up guys, you all know the actual reason, because you were all responsible. None of you has chosen to admit it still.

As the expression goes, since you made your own bed, you can lie in it now.

okay, let's test your theory, shiva-

what did i personally do to help 'destroy the VP scene'?
what is it that you think i need to admit?
and could you pass me a fluffy pillow for my lovely bed?

 

[shiva]

Pretty hard to prove it with VPF gone. Funny thing though, I didn't actually mention names did I? Why be so defensive all of a sudden? Still, if you really wanted to know, all you have to do is do a search on this site, and read what I said a long while back, haven't changed my mind.

But it's not all about one person, it's about the entire group.
Since VP is so VPinMAME centric, and all the energy was used for just VPM development, (and to keep a couple VPinMAME authors happy at everyone else's expense) You now have no more main tables left to do, no need to do new versions (because most of the newer ones used the actual images cut out from photos, and the rest were good enough that others may not want to do them) and no established authors left that are willing to do new ones because it's not worth the effort anymore.

Because it became a competition instead of a group of people that shared their work, you didn't train the next generation either, nor did it occur to anyone that allowing quantity from a very small group instead of quality from a much larger possible group will eventually bite you in the ass.

Out of tables to do, chased the original and EM guys over to FP due in part to the bad atmosphere of the existing community, lost completely all the older developers because they were getting fed up with the the way they were treated, and only have maybe a handful of devs left that may give you maybe one game a month if that.

BTW, I will be more than happy to hand out Fluffy pillows to anyone that wants one, and especially to certain people, because I know that they will choke on them.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Pretty hard to prove it with VPF gone. Funny thing though, I didn't actually mention names did I?

funny thing- it didn't look like any names were necessary when you said "Give it up guys, you all know the actual reason, because you were all responsible. None of you has chosen to admit it still."

or has logic and set theory changed since the last time i checked?

Why be so defensive all of a sudden?

i wasn't aware that asking you to explain yourself was "being defensive".
are you feeling 'defensive' about my 'defensiveness'?

Still, if you really wanted to know, all you have to do is do a search on this site, and read what I said a long while back, haven't changed my mind.

then i take it that you view yourself as some kind of a prophet who only lacks the reveration that you so richly deserve.
i better not bring up the fact that a whole bunch of other people said the same thing way back when, including myself, because i wouldn't dare to infringe on your territory as supreme prophet of VP doom and gloom.

 

[Liteuser.]

I think it's because with so few table authors currently working on and releasing tables the visitor counts are lower. If more authors were working on tables then I think the visitor counts would go back to normal. Another thing is, at VPforums.com I never really knew how many authors were currently working on tables. AJ's had a long list of table authors that had posted in the forums (even if some were older table projects and posts) and now I think we can all see by the posts, how many table authors are currently working on tables by reading PN, P-O, FP, JPG and VPF.org forums. I think It's that or people are not interested in pinball anymore.
All I know is, I still play pinball.

Later

 

[shiva]

Actually, Nic, I've been saying that for a lot longer than you have been around. And actually, yes, I must be a prophet, because what I said back then was argued by several people, who decided it's now time to not say anything. Though I can't remember exactly what I said, I predicted that this will happen, or was at the least a lot closer than what anyone else said.

Doom and Gloom eh? Or maybe it was because I cared enough to say something before it was too late. If I really wanted doom and gloom, I wouldn't have done the things I did to try and hold things together. I wouldn't have done shivaEngine, which soles purpose was to teach people the scripting aspect, I wouldn't have formed VPMX the first time the authors split, and come to think of it, I wouldn't have started the entire thing if I didn't care.

I don't care now, but then, what is there left to care about?

But don't ever imply that I want what has happened to this community, while everyone blindly wandered around thinking their happy thoughts and hiding behind rocks, I was the one that ended up being shot with arrows because I cared enough to actually stand up and take them. Disagree with me all you want, but I'm the one with all the scars.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

well, i followed the scene in 2001 and signed up at VPF in early 2002. but you say you were delivering your message 'a lot longer' than i've been around. so how much earlier than 2001 was that, exactly?

and yea, the reason i said "doom and gloom" is because that's the way you've always come off to me when talking about this stuff. (i would be surprised if other people who remembered your messages felt differently)

you've had the biggest chip on your shoulder in this scene other than a couple of other people i remember. caring and contribution is one thing, and i do not forget all the ways you helped out, but you know what? you're not alone there. maybe you were 'first', but you were definitely not alone. 99% of my own VP-work was original table, coding and FX-oriented, not VPM-oriented. and there were many people who were more productive than i was, two of them who i see in this thread.

so no, i don't see that you were alone in your contributions or message here. was there anything else you wanted to place a claim on?

when are you going to let go of this tired rant, shiva? it's been the same old thing for ages and it enlightens nobody. in fact, all i see it doing is fueling your self-righteousness and your bitterness, things which i would think any healthy, thinking person would want to go easy on. i mean, if this stuff still burns you up after all this time, maybe it's time to discuss it with your therapist one of these days.

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

when are you going to let go of this tired rant, shiva? it's been the same old thing for ages and it enlightens nobody. in fact, all i see it doing is fueling your self-righteousness and your bitterness, things which i would think any healthy, thinking person would want to go easy on. i mean, if this stuff still burns you up after all this time, maybe it's time to discuss it with your therapist one of these days.

But holding grudges (against people who have left the community a L-O-N-G time ago) is what VP is about

 

[StevOz]

Give it up guys, you all know the actual reason, because you were all responsible. None of you has chosen to admit it still.

As the expression goes, since you made your own bed, you can lie in it now.

All of us? This does as a matter of illusion, exclude your good self, either way, to me your synopsis is a crock of shit, shit being the operative noun here...

Utopia or even that which you may or may not consider a close equivalence is just fantasy at best. No doubt with such ideals your disappointment is assured.

I'll admit to playing the game and being along for the ride as we all have, what's with this, ho hum told you so the VP world is at an end, again absolute BS, you're still posting and that to me indicates you don't even acknowledge your own rhetoric.

Still I acknowledge you shiva have done more for the scene then most, at the same time I'm really hard pressed to nominate anyone that has actually tried to destroy or even for that matter conscientiously tried to harm the scene.

 

[shiva]

All of us? This does as a matter of illusion, exclude your good self, either way, to me your synopsis is a crock of shit, shit being the operative noun here...

Utopia or even that which you may or may not consider a close equivalence is just fantasy at best. No doubt with such ideals your disappointment is assured.

I'll admit to playing the game and being along for the ride as we all have, what's with this, ho hum told you so the VP world is at an end, again absolute BS, you're still posting and that to me indicates you don't even acknowledge your own rhetoric.

Still I acknowledge you shiva have done more for the scene then most, at the same time I'm really hard pressed to nominate anyone that has actually tried to destroy or even for that matter conscientiously tried to harm the scene.

All of you, including me. There isn't a person here or any one that was a part of this that shouldn't at least shoulder part of the blame, because everyone did this to themselves. I'm not talking about those that did what they did, I'm talking also about those that allowed them to do so, and the rest that didn't do anything at all but hide.

As to your last part, that one is easy. It's a prime example of what happens when people don't stand up for what's right. I don't think you were there, but the great Nicky Special episode, that ended up fracturing the entire community into several bits, (still is to a certain extent) caused several threads full of massive arguments, chased a couple authors away, never to return, and though it didn't destroy the community, it pretty much set the stage for what we got now. You didn't think that while those people were doing this, that they didn't at least have a idea that what they did was harmful?

To this day, and the reason for my statements above, I wonder what would have happened, or what would have been different, if a couple of the elite authors at that time had actually spoken up. I'm not especially proud of myself at that time either, but then I had never seen anything like that before either. VPMX was formed because of that not just to counteract all those problems, but it was formed as a generic group made up of several authors, because it's a lot tougher to attack a group effort than it is to attack a individual. It's a shame it didn't last, it would have made life easier for a lot of future admins, because it sort of worked.

How about another one then if that's not good enough? That Neptune person. What about the people that released CD disks of our free tables just so they can make money? I'm pretty sure they knew what they were doing, even though most were outsiders.

I could even say Foley, because I still to this day have a very hard time understanding how anyone could make such a mistake considering how many times both mine and Joxers name were plastered all over it. A few people ended up very upset over that, because it showed a weakness in the community.

That's just off the top of my head.

Look Steve, I'm not pointing a finger at anyone. I'm actually quite happy with the job you have done, and I expected no less. The time for pointing fingers at one person, or even a small group is really over now. The reason I find this so frustrating is that if you want to fix a problem, or in this case several problems, you have to at least admit that the problem is there, and I see nothing but a blanket denial of everything.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but you got to PROVE it. The old way of character assassination as a counter argument has done nothing but put this community in the present state that it is, and maybe it's time to stop trying to deflect attention, recognize the various problems, and perish the thought, maybe come up with solutions that are a actual benefit.

 

[yogiholzer]

Not all of the VPF.com members and visitors were pinball enthusiasts.

I think there were a lot of interested people, who only registered to be able to download tables unlimited, and some of these people thought, they need at least 1 post in the forum, so they just posted anything.

I also think, that there were a lot of interested people, who didn't register.

I also think there were a lot of people, who only visited out of curiosity or for getting a further free game.

Whatever reason to visit VPF.com, there was a normal enthusiasm and curiosity about the new at the early and the golden years.

Now it seems enthusiasm and curiosity has decreased and we run standard/normal activity. It's a normal sign of wear and saturation.

The disappearance of VPF.com was the incident, that made the truth about the enthusiam and the real interests about the hobby visible.

Most of the active participating people at VPF.com at last are still more or less active. Either here or at VPF.org or at both. The large number of visitors at VPF.com only cloud the truth. Only some people really left. The others didn't arrive at all.

Now PN seems to be the forum of people, who feel associated because of pinball, but want to talk about this and that as well or mainly, and VPF.org seems to be the forum of people, who don't want to talk about anything else than pinball. The good mixture of both is mostly lost. Cabinet owners actually seem to have some predominance there.

I try to participate in both forums to show my further interests and maybe to activate new people to become members and maybe contributors and to deliver some ideas and some amusement. I had to realise really soon, that I'm not good for making tables.

However, I think, it's not all that bad as it sounds in some of the previous posts. There's always developement in things and we can try to take influence on these, but without guaranty of final success, whatever that is in detail.

 

[shiva]

Good post Yogi, but I wish I can be more optimistic. A lot of those problems were glossed over, but that's not the biggest problem.

There's just not enough people out there that are talented enough, and willing to take the huge amount of time needed to learn how to make tables, and then be willing to do so for what little they get back. There is no one with enough overall knowledge that is willing to take the time to actually teach them.

The biggest trap this community ever got into was VPinMAME. It's not just because it turned VP into something like MAME, just to feed the warez kiddies, but, it is so much easier for a person to do Vpinmame, and they don't need the overall skills that would be needed for a original design. Instant gratification, for far less effort, because there was no real long programming time needed, using a design already done for you, complete with art, sound and included everything you would need for resources.

Great for the 7 years so far, but now there's the problem I mentioned above... everything has been done already, so now what? The quality is so good now, that the only way I could improve some tables is to find a actual machine, take a picture, print it out, load up the editor, and then tape the picture over the screen and play it.

Still wouldn't be the same though.

Original authors have no chance, because no matter how good you are, you will be judged against the VPM tables, and though that's blatantly unfair, it's human nature. It's very tough to be judged at the same standards as professional designers like Steve Richie, who had a huge team of other people that helped in the development like artists, musicians, vocal talent, programmers etc.

If you want a solution to this, then the first thing you have to do is change the thinking, especially the "every man for himself" philosophy, and really, that's the toughest problem to solve with this community.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

goodness gracious.

i say the real problem here is buying into the idea that we can or could win over a lot of people to originals.

a lot of us have made great efforts in that direction over the course of years and yet here we are, with the situation much the same as usual. and sure, in a better world, more effort would have been made by more people producing more tutorials, more resources, more personal help, more videos, etc.

but that's simply not reality, shiva. when are you going to stop banging your head against the wall and realise that fact? we lost this fight years ago and no known power is going to ever change that AFAIK.

 

[faralos]

funny, I am in an ongoing tutorial (one of three actually) that is teaching some of us to build pins in vp9, from the playfield all the way thru coding! and this is on that other site that everyone here doesn't like too much. there are still quite a few coders there and after we get thru these lessons about 15 more of us will be there, too as full-fledged coders/builders. You say vp is dying but so what? All you need is us, here and vpf.org, to keep vp going. So it won't go commercial, big woop, people like me care enough to learn it so that I may build and redo all the pins I can get my virtual mitts on! That's all that matters really, all that is needed are two people to keep it alive.

 

[m4paws]

I wasn't around way back at the beginning, but this whole "the members rang the death knell" thing just doesn't seem to ring true from what I've seen. Sure, there's been some arrogant people who enjoyed getting into fights more than participating. Sure, the most knowledgeable folks could have done more to help the n00bs. Sure, things weren't perfect, often times far from it. Sure, everyone could have done better.

You know what? Sounds like every internet community that I've ever visited. Every single one. To me, the real thing that caused the decline of VP was Randy's abandonment of the project. And of course the VPF surprise shut-down was another big nail in the coffin. Those things were the real killers. Not that all of Shiva's complaints don't have some merit, but this "we're all to blame" stuff just doesn't hold water for me.

 

[shiva]

@ Nic. What you said is correct, but don't I still have the right to be frustrated, when I know it could have been so much better? I've tried for many years to come up with a way around that, but I failed as well. Your right, and the reason why I retired was because I got tired of beating my head against the wall, and decided to do things just for myself.

Best thing for me actually, I'm 10 times better as a creative person since I no longer have any restrictions and freedom of mind to do exactly what I want, with the full knowledge that it doesn't matter in the slightest what anyone thinks, because no one will ever see it. Not intended as a slight, it's actually a great thing, it's amazing how much lighter my shoulders feel since I decided that it was better for me to have total freedom, without having to conform in the slightest to any kind of outside pressure. That was a nasty trap, and I think that one suckered in a lot more people than just me. Really is about as Old School for VP as you can get.

Faralos, I heard about that, but isn't that for VPM, and who actually is teaching that? Are they teaching you to just build a table like everyone else does, or are they teaching you how to make them better? Getting the most from a design and translating it into VP? There's a lot of theory there, a surprising amount, on how the pros make the design choices they do, and what they do, even the littlest things, just to sell machines and get as many quarters as possible to be sucked out of your pockets. If you translate these things properly in VP, you can turn a good VPM translation into a GREAT VPM translation, but there's a awful lot to learn there.

A modern machine takes a lot of people a lot of time to design, adjust, and play test before it's ready for production. (I believe it's 9 months average for Stern) Even the old EM games had about 5 people heavily involved from start to finish. It's the one thing that a few VPM tables could be improved on, because though they may look like the arcade version, they don't play like it.

The best tables out there are by people who understand the basics of design theory, game flow, and ball control. By knowing what to look for when you test your table to see how it plays, you can improve your table dramatically. The best VPM tables out there, a lot of them where designed by Authors that also did originals, and for a very good reason. Those authors learned those little tricks while they were doing Originals, because they had to think about what they needed to do to make their games as fun to play as possible within the limitations of the design.

Still, it's nice to hear that at least people are trying, which is a lot more than before. I'm especially happy that someone else decided to do it as well, and I hope he has far more success than I ever did.

 

[shiva]

m4paws, sorry, I didn't see your post, but it's actually a simple answer from my part.

PacDude

That's on the entire community. Would it surprise you to find out that during the Nicky Special incident, that it really should have been called the PacDude incident, because though Nicky released unauthorized mods, it was PacDude that made the entire thing far worse, and started that wonderful trait that we all know and love, the personal attacks on Authors? He was banned for that (or was it something else, it's hard to remember now all the things he actually did) but he came back, and continued to do exactly the same thing as before, because everyone wanted his tables.

I guess he's gone now, and though it's very peaceful, he was always a lot of fun to argue with, because he was pretty bright and had a lot of experience arguing with different people, so you had to be at your best.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

@shiva,
i'm pleased to hear you say those things. you've done a hell of a lot for the scene and have certainly earned your relaxation and personal quality time IMO. you're a good man; i just wish you wouldn't descend into the broad accusations against us all or forget that you were not alone in your good intentions.


re: pacdude,
yea, he could be fun to argue with, especially when you knew for sure that he was full of hot air and that you could make him twist in the wind if you were so inclined. but he was also one of the worst sports i've ever seen, real and online. his extreme insecurity preventing him from ever acknowledging other peoples' good points or admitting he was wrong, coupled with his bag of nasty tricks that he invariably dipped into whenever he was losing an argument (such as personal insults out of the blue) were beyond tiresome.

i don't know if i've ever seen someone who exploited his talents and popularity in one area so thoroughly as to counterbalance them by being the biggest douchebag possible in every other area. i mean, from that POV, he really was a remarkable person. just following him and noticing the times he came close to being a decent human was fascinating, sort of like watching spock or data flirting with humanity.

OTOH, i don't know that i agree that he was the biggest problem in the scene. i agree with m4paws (dude, you need to post more often. your posts are excellent) that randy was a huge problem... not far from a complete disaster in some ways. AJ sure didn't help with his complete flakiness in running VPF, nor did a group of staff (pre-loaf) that had some major problems with being able to run a webforums effectively.

wow... i can understand the huge rush from pointing fingers, now. :D it's kind of addicting!

 

[shiva]

It's not accusations, history has shown that I have been right on quite a few things. I've been wrong as well, but not as wrong as much as the people argueing with me though. Oddly enough, I do enjoy it, especially since it's always the same people who rush right in just to argue with me. Mind you, they seem to do that with a lot of people lately anyway, so I guess I'm not all that special.

By the way, it doesn't matter how many battles you lose, as long as you win the war at the end. You can say that about a few people, PD most of all.

He was full of hot air, he was terribly insecure at times, he also had the biggest ego I have ever seen, and that's something, considering we have people like Black around (Oh, I know I do deserve it sometimes, but honestly, I don't think too many people would disagree with that one either)

It's amazing what you find out when you argue with people, in that they truly show who they actually are, not just to you, but to everyone. I don't know actually what happened to him, it was his ego that drove him to do what he did, and the sad thing was it was his ego that prevented him from actually being what he wanted so desperately to be. He wanted so badly to be declared the best author, but it was his ego that drove him to mass produce the tables, and give us at best average for the most part, and some were just damn right horrendous with the mistakes in them.

And yet, it's really sad, because he was more than capable of actually being what he wanted so badly. It's a pretty powerful thing I would guess have a massive amount of people who do nothing but constantly praise you, even though it was rather apparent that most of those people never played the actual pinball game, just like PD, who even admitted he never did for quite a few tables he produced. He went with bulk, he pumped them out as fast as he could, because it was such a high for him.

He did massacre a lot more games than the decent one, but he didn't really care, and come to think about, neither did the adoring masses. If he was a musical group, he would be Herman's Hermits, a very popular 60's group, and no one could understand the reason why they ever got so popular even to this day. Some of his tables had objects in there that were never on the actual table, and the Bally classics... wow, they were very wrong on a couple.

And yet...

There are several very good tables he did do, most notably, the ones he had actually played, but of all the tables, there's really only one that truly stands out, and the only one where he was different than with every other table he did. (I really can't believe I am saying this by the way, and don't ever expect me to say something this nice about him ever again)

If there is a list of the absolute best VPM tables that I would put together, TAF would be one of them, and it would be no contest. This table, and not any other, was not created because of ego, nor was it created just so he could justify that he was better than anyone else, this table was a labour of love for him, and you could really see it, because I doubt that anyone else could produce such a table.

That's the sad part when you think about it, because he was more than capable, but the only thing that prevented him from truly being the great one that he wanted so badly was himself.

As to Randy, I would disagree actually. I knew Randy quite well, and I understand to a large degree why he suddenly stopped appearing, when he was quite active before. He was a very shy person anyway, but, and even though this is a educated quess, I think he was quite upset than he let on about how VP ended up becoming a pinball version of MAME, rather than what he created VP to actually be, which was a modern version of the Pinball Construction set.

I loved that program, and I seem to remember, so did he. Just the ability to be able to create something like this was amazing, especially for it's time, and to be honest, VP was his child, and he saw it being turned into something far lesser than what he had hoped for, and for the wrong reasons. VPM didn't just take over VP, it destroyed everything else, and it became the central theme around every bad arguement, especially that one period where half the authors decided VPm had become a pissing contest more than anything else, and well, everyone had to "mark" their territory.

The way he was treated as well, I can't blame him, because he did the exact same thing quite a few people did when they were treated so badly, he left. He was a bitch to get a hold of though, and he never was good at telling people things, but I will tell you one thing.

Despite all of the complaints, the snaring, the gnashing of teeth about all of the bugs, including quite a bit from me, there is one thing I have found out. Even after nearly 10 years, and with the time that I do have now, I am amazed at the degree of flexibility that VP can do, and even more at what I can do with it now that I never thought possible even a year ago. It really is a truly amazing piece of software that even after a decade, it can still surprise you with new discoveries if you push around the edges and are willing to take the time and experiment.

I think people would be very surprised at how good VP can actually look, better than now, even despite it's known flaws, if you think outside the box a bit. For all of Randy's problems, he still left us amazing software, and 10 years of enjoyment out of it.

As to the rest of it, I will leave that one alone, I would rather just go to bed.

If you do fight a battle, make sure you pick a battle that's worth it. :)

 

[yogiholzer]

So great VP is, I'm nearly sure I wouldn't have become infected by the pinball virus and involved to the forums, if there wasn't VPM.