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Respect & author's rights. What are those?

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tiltjlp

PN co-founder
With the way the discussion about table hosting and author's rights has gone at vpf, I have begun to consider locking my tables. It's bad enough that folks like Neptune simply slap up a long list of tables and then ignore them, so that oudated tables never are updated. It's worse that he feels he doesn't need to honor the wishes of authors who don't want their tables hosted by him for a variety of reasons. But worst of all is that there are members who feel that any and every table is up for grabs, and that mods of any and all tables is fine and dandy.

I realize I have little if any control over my tables once I release them. I also relaize that flipperless tables are among the least popular tables around, so the likelihood that any of my tables will be modded without my permission is fairly slim. But that's not the point, at least not to me. That point is that I don't appreciate the new attitude that I don't count as an author . . . that no author counts. So I've been wondering if I should offer my tables either locked, or maybe even through e-mail request. It isn't that I feel my tables are that wonderful, it's simply that I'm getting tired of hearing that authors don't amount to a hill of beans.

But then Paratech posts comments in favor of authors and their rights, and that one post wipes out all the negatives from any number of unknowing and uncaring individuals. While I'm still leaning toward locking my tables, it is nice to see that a few people understand.
 
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PacDude

Pinball Wizard
Since when should any of us care what a few assholes think, John? You can't please everyone in this world. You will inevitably create friends AND enemies by opening your mouth in this world. It's unavoidable. So why worry about it? If someone says you're not an author are you going to believe them? Their opinon is worthless.

Locking tables probably won't help anything, IMO. That will create more enemies that are offended by locks, etc. You can't help but offend SOMEONE in this world.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Pacdude said:
Since when should any of us care what a few assholes think, John? You can't please everyone in this world. You will inevitably create friends AND enemies by opening your mouth in this world. It's unavoidable. So why worry about it? If someone says you're not an author are you going to believe them? Their opinon is worthless.

Locking tables probably won't help anything, IMO. That will create more enemies that are offended by locks, etc. You can't help but offend SOMEONE in this world.

You're right there Dude. So I guess it's a matter of deciding who I would rather offend. I'll have to think about that for a while.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Don't know what you are talking about John, as I won't step foot into VPF, but it seems the same old, same old, nothing has changed there, which is why I don't go there anymore. I remembered in August, fustrated by everything, I already felt pretty let down, and I went there, and read the usual arguement of the week they have, and saw something that just clicked in. One person, so fed up with all of that (I forgot what it was) finally got sick and tired of the constant whining and bitching, that he said...

"If you don't like it, leave."

So that's exactly what I did. I have never logged in there since, and I am better off because of it. This entire thing with authors and respect for their work and love in sharing their creations has been going on for years, and will keep going on. The vast majority of people don't care about anything, other than they feel the right to take and do what they want, without any consideration to the person who created it. Locks makes it tougher, but ultimately, it won't stop anything. If it bugs a author enought though, then thhe only solution I see is not to release any more tables, or to charge for them as a author.
 

forchia

Pinball Player
The thread is lock by now.

It's really sad to read what's happening.
John, personally I think that there are many more good pinball lovers that enjoy your / other author releases than stupid and disrespectful members with the only aim to slander other members or start fights without any reason.
Like PD say, locking tables will probably bring more enemies than needed.

The only solution is to put a little more common sense into people's mind, letting them understand how much work and effort is involved in creating tables.
How important is the respect toward other people and other's work.

You can't understand how hard is learning to fly if you have never flown before...
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I know you're right forchia, there are more decent folks around than greedy fools, but it's always the direspectful ones who make the most noise. In the end I won't lock my tables, simply because it won't solve anything. I've kept my tables unlocked so far so new authors can look and see how I do things, and maybe learn a thing or two. Besides, I don't have any illusions of being a hot shot author, and that's OK. I enjoy making tables, so why not share them? I just hope that those jerks who don't care about author's rights are the same folks who won't touch a table unless it's flippered and rammped.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
I don't know wtf you're talking about either, John. VPF? I remember that. VPF reminds me alot of the rock opera Tommy. never did and never will.
 

forchia

Pinball Player
John, for what it can concern the table we are actually developing together, feel free to do whatever you think it's right.

Personally, I really don't put too much attention to people that don't show any respect toward other people's work, so please don't worry if you decide to lock or not your work.
You're the main author, and I'll respect any decision you'll take, it's really up to you.
 

forchia

Pinball Player
Shiva's post really put me into a really sad mood.
I have realized that I really have to fight everyday against people like those also in real life.
I think it's a common problem, though.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I've pretty much decided againt locking any of my tables. Just because a handful of people have no idea what's going on doesn't mean I should stoop to their level. Since we're part of a very small group of authors makiong flipperless, everyone would know an illegal or botleg mod. We do the best work we can, and if that's not good enough for some folks, they don't have to download the table. And Shockman I'm in the same boat with you, sometimes I'm not sure what I'm talking about either. :p
 

GHoSTFaCe

Pinball Wizard
tiltjlp said:
It isn't that I feel my tables are that wonderful, it's simply that I'm getting tired of hearing that authors don't amount to a hill of beans.
shiva said:
Don't know what you are talking about John, as I won't step foot into VPF, but it seems the same old, same old, nothing has changed there, which is why I don't go there anymore.
shockman said:
I don't know wtf you're talking about either, John. VPF? I remember that. VPF reminds me alot of the rock opera Tommy. never did and never will.
Seems like the answer is self-evident John. Shiva and Shockman are dead-on, just stay away from that place. It's not like there aren't alternate sites to visit (hey, aren't we at one of them now?) that aren't like that. Since you've said your health limits your use of the computer anyway, seems like an awful waste of that time to go there and get yourself all wound up.
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
i stopped by today and saw this thread. not sure what to say, exactly. if people feel like making VPF a scapegoat for the sometimes testy relationship between authors and members, then what can i say? people want free speech and are highly sensitive to censorship on the one hand but on the other hand often get personally offended when free speech leads to the these kinds of messy arguments. it's like PD and john say about releasing tables- you can't please everyone. if you run a forums that allows for free speech then you can't control the climate of the place- sometimes it's positive and exciting, sometimes it's bickering and petty. that's life.

@shiva,
you know i've always publically respected you for the long hard work you did for the scene, and that i happily helped with a couple of small shivasite projects, but god damn man, it seems like every post you've made for the last couple years has been the exact same formula: "the users took advantage of me. not enough people appreciated my work. i tried to help everyone and got nothing but grief. VPF went downhill without me due to irresponsible staffs. nothing ever changes. VPF is always going to hell." for christ's sake, it sounds like you have a gall bladder the size of a grapefruit. i mean, doesn't it appeal to you on some level to make peace with the realities of the internet?

@all,
things are always changing. VPF is on its 4th staff now since it's beginning. if you think the place is always the same then that's proly what you will see. granted, some things are slower to change than others but again, that's life. i remember for a long time after the 2nd staff left and loaf's staff went on duty that PD still felt extremely distrustful and angry with VPF (hard to blame him since he was banned). i kept trying to say "loaf and lio are really decent guys" and eventually i think they went on to become PD's favorite staffers there. but it took time to get that message across. and yes, i would bring them back in a second and step down if i could, but since that's not happening we do the best with what we have. two of our moderators are away on leave right now, two other staffers don't seem to have much time these days, and there's not a lot of motivation to micro-manage and over-moderate. so my inclination is to let people talk about the adult issues they please. i certainly can't force people to act 'adult' or to make people respect authors to the extent that authors desire. maybe someone else can, but i'm certainly not up to that task.

well this has become a bit rambling, but all i can say is- i have nothing against PN. i support the scene. and if this site becomes the new VPF then good for PN and too bad for VPF. i guess it's hard for me to read this "VPF is crap" line of thinking ever since i saw loaf turn the site around, but if people want to keep saying this then there's not much i can do.

so what lesson did i learn this time? seeing as how sensitive authors are to the subject in the "SDB" thread, if i'm around i'll prolly get it under control much faster in the future. yes, i'm still learning the job. regardless, i do my best but i can't force the site to be the one everyone needs it to be.
 

davidsss

Pinball Wizard
Don't worry Nicholas, it's a hard job being a moderator, all we can ask is that you do the best you can. Clearly the moderators currently at VPF don't have ulterior motives or bad intentions so I don't think we can blame the moderators for any probs at VPF.

While I find some of the threads at VPF irritating I certainly don't have any illusions about the way most people treat the authors' work. They are never going to give us much respect. Quite frankly, it's water off a duck's back to me. I only care about a small number of peoples' opinions around the pinball sites, the rest are wasting their breath.

DS
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
Where to start?

If you feel you need to lock your tables than i suggest you keep them to your self, this is a discussion that splits the "community" by default, my suggestions are based on an old school feeling about VP locks that left many of us bewildered. We would be better off if Table Locks were not an option, release it to the world or Don't is the real choice....

I'll promote VP anyway that i can to the world, if it includes your locked table they will crack it, get over it and KEEP the table for your own enjoyment if you disagree.

Asking individuals for permission to host 1000's of tables and possibly update them on a website is a monumental task, you would need a paid staff and that should not happen, It's a hobby.

I don't read VPF unless i have to add a table for others to d/l, I found vp before vpf was born and they did more harm than good, imho.
Cash removed a idiotic registration process just like it does now to cancel a d/l limit...

VPF, in my opinion deserves every negative post it gets...., i appreciate nicolas.b's post, he might have been a founder of VPL's group and i believe in his ability to turn it around.
Jon
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Really? Is it policy of VPF to allow a private email that was sent to select people to be publically displayed on VPF, seen by several people that are suppose to prevent that from happening, and yet not do anything about it? I would say that's just a bit more than irresponsible. How about you tell me one of the most deeply personal and private thing you have, so I can put it up for everyone to see, then totally ignore it and have not just one admin post right after it, but two?

Should I bother to point out that it's been more than 4 groups, that the entire site is rudderless, has been having the exact same problem for years, and yet nothing has ever really been done about it, other than one group replace the next group, make these exact same dramatic statements, then get just as fed up and worn down, to be replaced by another group...

But you know what, your right. Maybe I should just stay nice and quiet, and not point out to people things like this, after all, I only have 10 years of running websites under my belt, several former staff members have gone on to running their own successful sites, and lets just chalk up as "one of those weird things" the only times the forum has ever been peaceful for a long stretch of a time have been when a couple of staff members of shivaSite were on that staff. Well, hope it was a weird thing, because there won't be any more of them in the future.

Maybe you will be lucky. maybe not, just don't expect the support you deserve. Oh, I got shouted down last time I mentioned that, but then it's also a good time to admit that I told a fib, and clear the air. I did log into VPF a little time after I closed the site. I do admit to being a little curious about the reaction and all, and I was actually gonna say something to everyone, I just wanted to make sure that the people who stuck with me through thick and thin were looked after first. Of course, it wasn't hard to see the post by the person saying exactly what I got shouted down for stating in the first place.

Nope, I think it's best to just ignore that one. Especially the cost to various people because of it all. I won't add it to the list of other people before them who had that happen to them, because that would be bitching needlessly, instead of actually caring enough to say something to try and force a change that may be better than what we have now. You can even accuse me of that right now, but it's not totally true. I've seen this time and time again, and though this was before your time here, but I can name each and every person on that list from the very beginning, fairly or unfairly, and I would know that very beginning, when this all started, because the first person who had that happen to him is the same person WHO IS WRITING THIS VERY POST.

I know a couple people on the staff now that I consider very good friends. I've had other friends who were there before, that know exactly what I am talking about, from personal experience. Even people that I know would never consider to be a friend. It doesn't matter who they are, or whether they agree with me or not, they know one thing about me, even with your brief time at shivaSite, you know as well, and it's this. It's all about trust, respect, and commitment. I would never allow a staff member to use himself to shield me from something that's my responsibility and not his. I would never then post saying how much I enjoyed the entire spectical, ignoring the fact that other people took it on the chin instead. I would have stepped up immediately, taken the hit, and then chewed out the staff member for even thinking of taking on such a thing that was my problem, my responsibility, and not his. Under my defination, that is not part of their job.

I hope you don't feel you have to do that Nic. It's not pleasant at all, I know exactly how it feels like to stand up for someone, and end up having a bulleye painted on your forehead instead of the proper person. I honestly hope that no one presently at VPF has that happen to them, I hope the community itself will stop destroying themselves and wake up, but the thing about all of this is it does happen, it has happened a few times and could quite easily happen again. The previous administration said pretty much what you said as well, but it still happened.

Personally, I hope you are right about all this, and I'm wrong. There still is a tiny part of me that still cares enough to even write this, and no matter how upset I feel, that tiny part will still be there. My time is over, I'm in my retirement rocking chair happy and enjoying the fact that I no longer have to face the challenges of a community that has to face a huge and radical change to what I had to face for all these years. You and others stepped up and decided you wanted to do that. But that doesn't mean that I will not state what I believe is right, and I no longer have the pressure of having to put on a happy face because that's what the community demands I do. The only difference now is I am only willing to state those opinons here from now on, and not at VPF.
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
well thanks davidsss, jon and shiva for the kind words. i hope the various sites in the VP scene will always be friendly towards each other. we have a lot to lose by fighting IMO and little to gain.

@shiva,
almost all of what you say is frankly over my head. it sounds like it's referring to specific incidents in a general way without naming names. it's obvious you feel VPF has really let you down but without specific details i don't know what to say.

it also sounds like a couple people somewhere along the line said or did something insulting to you at VPF and you've written off the entire site as a result. maybe i'm being ignorant but that seems a little unfair. i know there are a lot of grudges held in this scene between various people but it's hard for me to really understand. i traditionally like to make jokes about myself and other people around me but it's hard for me to really think of anyone in this scene as being 'the bad guy'. certain things make me sad tho- sad and frustrated. like the fact that VPF is doomed unless a new site owner can be found. i started a thread here in supporting members:
http://vpforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37291
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Nic, the problem isn't the staff. The problem is a few newbies and wannabes who don't have any clue about what's gone on in the past, but still feel they know what is best for all of us. I'd rather see those heated discussions remain out in the open but that's not my decision to make. And as peeved as those few dolts made me, I won't start locking my tables, simply because to do so means those few morons will have won.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Maybe. I forget that some people are new here, and have no idea what the hell is being talked about.

I already knew about a new site owner being looked for actually, so no need to look at that thread. The thing is that this was suppose to happen a year and a half ago, someone was to take over, promises were made, and everything was to be settled for the best. Never happened in fact, for what ever reason, I don't know, but I kind of expected that somehow, as in combination with other things, made me decide to move the site off the server.
All I know is whoever decides to do so, will not be able to support the site without sharing space with other sites. Even at the cheapest pricing for a decent PROPER server, it still works out to (rounded off figure) about 175 to 200 per month, including the additional costs beyond the server charges. The person who decides to step up better have deep pockets, and understand that
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
the potential takeover from a year-and-a-half ago: i don't know how to refer to it without insulting the person in question, but from the evidence i saw it was a less-than-serious, flawed attempt to say the least. VPF needs a stable, reliable owner- not someone who is going to run away when they come to the first bump in the road.

the server costs? i agree with your basic figures but we don't know how much the monthly donations are so it's impossible to say whether the site needs someone with deep pockets or someone who will be actually be making a surplus each month. only AJ can say for sure at this point.
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
Ok, I take the hint...

I realize, I can't see those VPM Links because I have not donated to AJ's VPM download scam..

175 to 200 per month?

Another scam....
wtf? This place could hold 10 vpf's for free and have bandwidth to spare.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
nope jph, that's how much it costs. I don't know what your deal is, you got a special pricing as well, but I do know that bandwidth isn't everything as well. Your not paying for bandwidth, you are paying for the server and what's included in the package. If you did the same bandwidth as VPF etc, you will be finding a few problems, especially on a Virtual server like this one.
Add a 10 to your figures for bandwidth, and then take a look at how slow the site is now in terms of speed, and then image how much slower it will be with more traffic like that. Dedicated server territory, not shared. You need to add the costs other than the server, license fees, etc as well. 200 per month was a rounded off figure. VPF was overpaying for what was stated as the costs compared to what kind of package was being used though, but it was a dedicated managed server, and more than likely, there was a maintenance agreement included so AJ wouldn't have to do it himself like he did it before.
BTW, could a site support themselves with that cost? They could, but it would mean a forced ad system as well. Pretty sure a lot of people wouldn't like that, no matter what the reason. I won't talk about that other person nic, not fair to him, but yeap, I knew.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
I don't know about any of the current problems, but have been around forever and know about the rest. VPF was not smacked with anything. They worked hard, real hard, every staff, and nearly every staffer it ever had, to make VPF what it is now (the other place, at best, for many charter members of the damned place)
 
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