Williams EM Recreation BAM FP Stardust (Williams, 1971)

[Paolo]

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[Paolo]

@GeorgeH @TerryRed @Gimli @Isaac Sauvage @Popotte @AnonTet @NitroNimbus @Gin @madmrmax
and for those who want

Please try this table if you can and want, as far as physics, gameplay is concerned ..... I have modified, changed, many times the parameters in XML, I took something a little here and there, in the xml in the folder of bam , and also something @smoke , but I am always convinced that it is very difficult to find the perfect one, at least from my point of view in terms of gameplay......let me know something,and many thanks.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Sure, I'll try it either tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for sharing.

I've been testing and tweaking a lot lately, so the timing is good.

 

[GeorgeH]

@GeorgeH @TerryRed @Gimli @Isaac Sauvage @Popotte @AnonTet @NitroNimbus
and for those who want

Please try this table if you can and want, as far as physics, gameplay is concerned ..... I have modified, changed, many times the parameters in XML, I took something a little here and there, in the xml in the folder of bam , and also something @smoke , but I am always convinced that it is very difficult to find the perfect one, at least from my point of view in terms of gameplay......let me know something,and many thanks.

I played it quite a bit. It plays much like a real EM table I played a long time ago. It may be slightly slow but good.

I looked through the script. I couldn't find anything wrong. There are a couple of changes you might want to try. You might want to try adding JLou5641's latest rotation speed chart to the XML (see below). After I added it, I reduced the minomega of the flippers to 32 (you may want to go lower). I am not sure you will like it but it is worth trying. It does seem to speed things up a little.

rotationSpeedChart="{0.0,1.0},{3.9,3.8},{9.5,9.0},{15.1,15.6},{19.8,22.0},{24.6,31.5},{26.3,39.3},{28.0,50.0},{29.1,62.0},{29.5,75.0},{30.0,100.0},{30.1,160.0}[0.0,0.0],[20.5,1.0],[55.3,14.5],[90.0,50.0],[100.0,100.0]"

 

[Paolo]

Ok,thanks @GeorgeH for your reply

I played it quite a bit. It plays much like a real EM table I played a long time ago. It may be slightly slow but good.

what would you do to fast it up as you mean?
I could increase the slope......or the gravity

I looked through the script. I couldn't find anything wrong. There are a couple of changes you might want to try. You might want to try adding JLou5641's latest rotation speed chart to the XML (see below). After I added it, I reduced the minomega of the flippers to 32 (you may want to go lower). I am not sure you will like it but it is worth trying. It does seem to speed things up a little.

I have not followed this thread, so you suggest me to enter rotation Speed Chart, and reduce the minomega to 32?
I had done something like this by taking it from a smoke table....and I have also used this configuration ' {-90.0,140.0}[-90.0,140.0]" of mine,but I was not really convinced, I will try this your suggestion.

 

[GeorgeH]

Ok,thanks @GeorgeH for your reply


what would you do to fast it up as you mean?
I could increase the slope......or the gravity

There are quite a few ways to make it play faster. Increasing slope is one of the easiest. You can increase the strength of different table objects; the plunger strength can dramatically affect speed. You can increase flipper omega although it is already fairly high. You can change the ball XML settings although you have obviously worked on it quite a bit so I would be hesitant to change it.

I have not followed this thread, so you suggest me to enter rotation Speed Chart, and reduce the minomega to 32?

Yes. You may not like it. Rotation speed charts usually increase the accuracy of the shots but it also seems to make your table play a bit faster.

 

[Dreamstate]

Several things that seem off on the table. The Ball Is very slow on the table. The lighting on the play field gets brighter for a half second every time a bell rings and the room lights/ambient lighting gets brighter with each time the bells ring. Thanks for posting It.

 

[Paolo]

@Dreamstate

Thank you for your feedback, I assure you that I am working hard to try to have good gameplay, and of course many things can please some and not others, this is life.

Being an "EM", I thought this would be the most suitable game speed neither too fast nor too slow,in this table the physics is different compared to my other table, especially mass and gravity, so it sounds very strange to me that it seems very slow as you say, but it needs to be verified....a advice, not to think only about the ball, but all the gameplay, this would be a great help to improve us.

But a question, when you say too slow, this makes me suspect something else, isn't it that you have slow pc problems?

In truth in all origin, I had configured it faster but from my point of view, in terms of gameplay ,in this way(mass="160" gravity="9810") but the gameplay was too out of phase for me, that's why you see the current configuration......that is in terms of the ball it went down faster towards the fins, you mean this that you would like it faster? or that it seems slow to you for other reasons?.......but before I tell you what needs to be done to speed it up, you have to tell me if that's what I think.

About of the lights, it is neither an error nor a bug, but it's just an effect that I created, which I like to have,and behind it there is a big job, because it is not only a play of light, but also of other things.

 

[Dreamstate]

That's cool. I'm just giving you feedback and my own personal opinion. Others won't see this as an issue and will love it as you do I'm quite sure. But for me, the room lights flashing every time the pop bumpers are hit is extremely distracting. So much so that the game is unplayable for me. My entire room lights up as well and it temporarily makes me wince. As for the speed of the table it's almost like there's something sticky that's been placed on the play field. Best way to describe it. I'm comparing your table to about 500 other FP tables I have. Some are so fast it's like I'm playing on a real table. Yours is just slow to me. Others might like it, to me it needs adjusting and the only way for me to adjust it is to increase the slope. I'm no coder and I simply don't have the time to sit and fiddle endlessly with these things. Thanks again.

 

[Paolo]

That's cool. I'm just giving you feedback and my own personal opinion.

And....I thank you again, i like to receive opinions, they help to improve when they are constructive especially.

Ok, I can make a version without effect lights, and increase slope, mass and gravity, for you, without any problem, indeed it will be a pleasure for me.

I just ask you a courtesy if you can, could you make a video while you play with it?
So I see what happens, because as you describe it, the ball it seems stuck on the playfield, it is something very strange to me,because to me I like to play even fast,, if you see my other tables, with normal physics, you could not even play, so i ask you could you try my other tables and confirm this, please?

 

[Dreamstate]

Everything on your video is what I see when i play. The room lighting flashing constantly when the pop bumpers are hit, the ball trails i can't turn off, the plastics lights going off and then the play field lighting suddenly getting brighter when the bells ring, the ball moving like there something sticky on the play field. Sometimes the ball moves at light speed, then suddenly it's like it's speed has been slowed to a crawl. Not stuck, just too slow. Physics don't look right. But then again, it's FP and the physics on most of the best tables aren't all that great anyway. All of this is completely unnatural looking to me. Takes me out of the zone. If you like this, awesome. It's not for me. Others will love it so don't change anything for me. There's plenty of other tables out there for me to enjoy that don't do what your table does. All that matters is that you like it. It's your table. You asked for feedback and you have it.

 

[Paolo]

You asked for feedback and you have it.

I don't quite understand the meaning of this phrase, anyway I'll explain again:

In your first comment you said that "The Ball Is very slow on the table"and that's what I wanted to understand why,or rather what do you mean ,now, I understand that you don't like the effect of the lights, when you hit the slings or the bumpers, I am willing to give you a version without this, now these things seem unnatural to you, okay, but these are functions that allows bam ... and I use them in my tables.

Now, the thing you say sticky and the "ball trail function" the luminous trail of the ball, now you can deactivate it by pressing Special2Key, if you read the description of the table you see it.

Now, if you don't mind, I wanted to understand why you find that the ball seems slow to you, it doesn't seem slow to me, or at least as you mean it, I have configured the table neither too fast nor too slow, but if you want speed in the gameplay , nor can we talk, nothing easier, I just change three values, but if you talk to me about slow ball, I don't understand what you mean.

Edit:
PS: if you continue to modify your last comment, without putting the "edit", the answer I gave you before (in this post) will seem incomplete, or worse not suitable, with the consequence of creating confusion, I urge you to use the "edit" if you modify a comment made previously.....as i used now. Thanks

 

[Dreamstate]

I'm not making a request for you change anything for me. I brought up these things because I thought you might have somehow overlooked them and to me personally, they looked like errors. They are intentional. So there's nothing that needs changing. Cheers.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

I've now looked at several videos and tried JP's VPX version, and I must say, I like this table a lot, and prefer your version best of all, Paulo. Thanks again for sharing this, because I'd never seen or played the table before!

Btw, I've also added your backglass to our media collection (giving credit to you), and found another lit version, which I also uploaded. Ditto for the game flyer. If you don't mind, I'll add these in to your resource entry later. Sound good? (I like to add that extra info with new favorites of mine)

Feedback:
- I support your message about the game being free, and that you don't permit it for resale. Unfortunately, when that info is in the form of an extra document, someone can just delete it and pass the table on without it. Therefore, I'd recommend you put that message in the "table info" area, and possible even on the background area, like you do with the score card.

- After watching the various videos, I don't really agree that the table has a low slope. Indeed, I believe most EM's were designed to play fairly slowly and emphasize nudging, so it doesn't make sense to me that it should have a significantly higher slope. Unless the operator especially set it up that way, of course.

- That said, the flippers are indeed a bit overpowered IMO. Because even with brand new solenoids, I don't think the ball should be moving quite that quickly. For example, it should be possible to hit KickerWheelCentre via flipper shot, even if the ball has to bounce of off Bumper1 first. Right now, middle shots from resting flippers tend to zoom right past that hole, meaning you pretty much need a "happy accident" to hit it.

- The center arrow wheel should have four lit bulbs underneath, but maybe I'm not seeing them because of my general FP light settings? (see attach)

- Personally I love the ball trails! I had no idea that was possible in FP-BAM. But I'd also prefer to tone them down a bit. I assume that would be fairly simple in script?

- I didn't mind the flashing background, cabinet and GI lights at first, but it happens so often that it gets annoying. Like a headache coming on. Therefore, if the flashing could happen much less frequently, I'd be happier. Perhaps only flash things on a plunged ball and a center kicker hit? Something like that.

- I see that FP's two "special keys" should have some effect on the above behaviors, but they didn't seem to work for me. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.

- The overall table physics feel good, so congrats on all your tweaking. I also like your design choices in general with this game.

- I still have very little experience and knowledge of this particular table, so there's probably some things I've missed. I would have to watch more video to get a better feel, I think.

- I'm particularly curious what Dave @pinballdaveh thinks about the various speed choices on this version. Because in general, I assume we want a slope that represents how the legs of most units were set up, and we want flippers that feel 'non-new, but in good condition,' yes? (see video above, Dave)

Hope that feedback might have helped!

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Btw, I love Christian Marche's work. I thought he was the only guy who did "Pointy People" art, but it seems there were a few others as well:

Pointy People

In the mid 1960’s, as American culture was rapidly changing under the influence of the Baby Boom’s surge in youth population, a new style of artwork hit the pinball industry. Characterized by angular, abstracted figures, this artwork stood in stark contrast to the old fashioned graphic style...

www.pacificpinball.org

For those people near Alameda, California, it looks like you can visit this exhibit right now at the Pacific Pinball Museum.

 

[Paolo]

I've now looked at several videos and tried JP's VPX version, and I must say, I like this table a lot, and prefer your version best of all, Paulo. Thanks again for sharing this, because I'd never seen or played the table before!

Btw, I've also added your backglass to our media collection (giving credit to you), and found another lit version, which I also uploaded. Ditto for the game flyer. If you don't mind, I'll add these in to your resource entry later. Sound good? (I like to add that extra info with new favorites of mine)

Many thanks,sure no problem!

- I support your message about the game being free, and that you don't permit it for resale. Unfortunately, when that info is in the form of an extra document, someone can just delete it and pass the table on without it. Therefore, I'd recommend you put that message in the "table info" area, and possible even on the background area, like you do with the score card.

apart from the resale, which is also an illegal thing, with this message I urge people not to download it on that site where the owner takes possession of the table without permission, and publishes it on his site, for me it is like a thief.

yes I understand where you are referring, but that is the place of the rules, but I can also insert it there.

- After watching the various videos, I don't really agree that the table has a low slope. Indeed, I believe most EM's were designed to play fairly slowly and emphasize nudging, so it doesn't make sense to me that it should have a significantly higher slope. Unless the operator especially set it up that way, of course.

ok, I'll explain, the fact of the slope is strictly linked to the physics of the table via XML, for those who do it ..... in fact in my other tables, not modifying the XML, I leave the slope between 7/8, so the ball goes down towards the fins faster, but be careful we must not confuse the two thing, that is when we say slow or fast ball...... I don't know if I'm clear ?

slow ball and fast ball, for me are other things, they must be specified better, as I said to Dreamstate, determined by other factors and functions, including "dimanic flipper", and xBAM.BallSpeedLimit ......... if the 'omega is too strong, which then you also go add the configurations in the fp editor, you will see a super ball, when you hit it ...... if we use also this "xBAM.BallSpeedLimit" function, then you have to pay close attention .... in fact I use them both, so to conclude finding a configuration between the three things, slope, dinamic flipper, and xBAM.BallSpeedLimit, it is not easy at all, there must be a balance, to have an optimal game play .. ....I do not know if I was clear .

- That said, the flippers are indeed a bit overpowered IMO. Because even with brand new solenoids, I don't think the ball should be moving quite that quickly. For example, it should be possible to hit KickerWheelCentre via flipper shot, even if the ball has to bounce of off Bumper1 first. Right now, middle shots from resting flippers tend to zoom right past that hole, meaning you pretty much need a "happy accident" to hit it.

when you say bit overpowered, what do you mean? and where does the ball move so fast, I ask you among the bumpers?
just as I told you above this is closely linked to the discussion I told you before....

now, to do what you suggest, I need to re-configure the fins, both in the fp editor, and the omega of the dynamic flipper, which by the way I have also done many times, with the consequence that you solve a problem and damage a other.
if I lower the strength of the fins, the ball does not go higher that is beyond the bumpers, in the other kicker, if I increase the xBAM.BallSpeedLimit which is set to 2000, it means that the ball will not exceed those 2 seconds of speed, I know it is difficult to understand, only with tests you understand, but if I put more than two seconds you will see the ball moving on the table and especially if hit with the strong omega, you will see that ball become invisible.

but to try to hit the kicker in the middle, it's not really difficult for now, but "we" could improve by spending a lot of time and testing.


ok, for the other things, the four bulbs on the wheel of fortune, I discarded them because they didn't give a good result, the fp bulbs are not like the real ones, and they blocked the view of the arrow, I opted to light up the whole wheel, with another method, if you notice it you will see that it lights up.

about special keys 1 and 2 I will check

as for the lighting effect, which you and Dreamstate told me, I understand that it might annoy, I'm willing to do a version without effect, no problem for me, perhaps in this table this effect is more accentuated due to the colors of the plastics, strange .. .because in my other tables, I always use this effect ...... there are two things, either nobody noticed them, or nobody plays them

- The overall table physics feel good, so congrats on all your tweaking. I also like your design choices in general with this game.

thanks for the compliment, but the matter of physics is related to many things or factors, so as you can see in my other threads about that ..... physics is a great beauty beast to tame, there are too many things to to fit together, for an optimal result or gameplay ..... that's why I asked for help from Jsalas ..... did you see his answer to me?

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Thanks, Paulo.
Whoof... it's hard communicating through the language barrier.

So, I echo @Dreamstate in that you asked for feedback and I was happy to respond. In terms of feedback, there's not much else I can add in addition to what I specified above.

I don't need a special table version just for me. But I do think it would help if you included more options in the standard table to enable / disable various features.

Lastly-- just put the "freeware" message in the background of the table, Paulo (like the score box). It will make you feel better, and no true fan of the pin-sim scene will be offended. Only assholes who try to re-sell your tables will be angry. Fotterli tutti.

 

[Paolo]

Whoof... it's hard communicating through the language barrier.

I thought that all my explanation was clear, it takes me almost an hour, to try to make a more than good translation, and make myself understood ....what was not clear to you, I can fix it.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

I thought that all my explanation was clear, it takes me almost an hour, to try to make a more than good translation, and make myself understood ....what was not clear to you, I can fix it.

None of this is your fault, but I think you only understood about 50% of what I said earlier.

But Paulo, you always try hard, and you always have my respect on that.

If you know Spanish or French, maybe try that instead of English?

 

[Paolo]

I think you only understood about 50% of what I said earlier.

maybe you will not believe me, but I understood everything you said before, and also well, the translation in the translator from English to Italian is clear to me, when there is something unclear I say it, in fact I asked you a few things, if I could be clearer, but you left them out.

maybe I made the mistake of giving you explanations beyond your opinions about the table, maybe this confused you a little,and making you understand that I did not understand what you told me.
I'm sorry,I gave you technical explanations on the table .... xml, slope, and other codes .... so this confused you

ok, let's act this way, tell me what I have wouldn't understand, in your opinion....

But Paulo, you always try hard, and you always have my respect on that.

Thanks,Idem!

If you know Spanish or French, maybe try that instead of English?

no, I understand English better than Spanish or French.....

but you could, write in Italian, and do the translation from English to Italian ..... you try, obviously you have to do the counter test ..... before posting the translation .... and I'll tell you if it's better or not.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Okay, let's try that another time.
Ciao!


P.S. Strange... thinking about it now, I actually have -no- idea why the hell we say "ciao" in Peru. I mean sure, it's nice as both a "hello" and "goodbye," like "Aloha" or "Servus!"

¿But how did a single Italian word become our "hello / goodbye," when we barely have any other modern-Italian words en Castellano del Perú?

 

[Paolo]

P.S. Strange... thinking about it now, I actually have -no- idea why the hell we say "ciao" in Peru. I mean sure, it's nice as both a "hello" and "goodbye," like "Aloha" or "Servus!"

¿But how did a single Italian word become our "hello / goodbye," when we barely have any other modern-Italian words en Castellano del Perú?

I didn't know, that in Peru they used an Italian word "ciao",much less that it had two meanings together "hello / goodbye," as you say.

for us Italians.....ciao is hallo.....goodbye is arrivederci......they are two different contexts for us.

but not even you Americans, joked, you know ???, you too have many equal words that you use in many contexts, and that change the meaning, depends on the content you are talking about

a trivial example, the word "like" ....( that you used it is written above see in black )The context depends on two different types of things

for us Italians "like" = piace....."how" = "come" in Italian........but sometimes like is equal to how come in Italian....you understand me?

 

[GeorgeH]

The Special 1 key turns the game room on/off.

The Special 2 key toggles the ball trails on/off.

The HUD Toggle Key toggles the HUD on/off.

 

[Paolo]

@Isaac Sauvage @Dreamstate @GeorgeH

Bene!....I made some changes, honestly I still don't understand when you tell me you three, that you find it slow.
Please,you three ,should tell me what you find slow, like ...., that the ball goes down slowly towards the fins, or worse still that the ball moves slowly in the table, I'm not talking about gameplay, because I think maybe you all don't understand what I mean

George say:
It may be slightly slow but good.

Dreamstate say:
The Ball Is very slow on the table

Isaac Sauvage say:
I don't think the ball should be moving quite that quickly

therefore, i removed the lighting effect, and i made it so that the ball goes down faster in the fins, not knowing what you mean by slow for now I only changed this.......for other things we will see later

so I invite you all to try this version.


PS: Special 1 key and Special 2 key,you have to make sure that in preferences, you have other letters assigned because some are assigned to bam, like the P or N key.


@GeorgeH
I did not insert the rotationSpeedChart you suggested to me, it seems to have a not very good effect at least on this table, in this version I have only changed mass and gravity, I have not changed the slope, nor the omega, and the strength in the editor of fp of the fins.....for other changes, until I understand what you three mean by slow ball, I cannot intervene on other factors.

thank you all.

 

[NitroNimbus]

By far the best flippers/physics I have ever seen on a FP table ever.
Well done mate!
It should be rated 10 stars, cheers!