Gottlieb Solved Sure Shot (Gottlieb, 1976) Hold relay and other issues

[Sonora70]

Trying to get the last few issues solved. My game over light is not coming on at the end of the game, however, when I turn the machine off then turn it back on the game over light is on. My observation is that the when the hold relay is released the light is on. Should my hold relay be releasing at the end of a game? It is staying energized.

A couple other issues involve the bonus scoring. From what I have read, I believe there should be bonus points given after the ball drains. The bonus unit is firing when the ball drains, however no points are being added.

Finally, I have no ball in play lights and my match lights are not coming on. I've cleaned the stepper unit and it is working properly, however still no lights.

Thanks for any help on either of these issues. I have a schematic and I've come a long way however there are still some confusion for me.

 

[pinballdaveh]

the ball in play lights and the game over light should be controlled by a make/break switch on the game over relay and possibly other switches in that circuit. i dont see any latch/trip relays on the mech board so i would think the game over relay is part of the playfield bank. the hold relay usually gets pulled in when the machine is turned on and always stays pulled in until the machine is turned off. the bonus scoring looks like its all single scoring bonus no double or triple bonus scoring. the bonus scan unit disc rivets are usually powered by the lit bulbs on the playfield ball rack and will fire a 6v low voltage relay coil. instead of using a second row of rivets on the disc a common frame system is used. check that the bare wire on the wiper shoe is connected and a wire(s) will be attached to the frame of the unit. either of these not connected will keep the bonus from scoring. a pic or post of the lights section of the schematic would help if you still need more help.

 

[Sonora70]

the ball in play lights and the game over light should be controlled by a make/break switch on the game over relay and possibly other switches in that circuit. i dont see any latch/trip relays on the mech board so i would think the game over relay is part of the playfield bank. the hold relay usually gets pulled in when the machine is turned on and always stays pulled in until the machine is turned off. the bonus scoring looks like its all single scoring bonus no double or triple bonus scoring. the bonus scan unit disc rivets are usually powered by the lit bulbs on the playfield ball rack and will fire a 6v low voltage relay coil. instead of using a second row of rivets on the disc a common frame system is used. check that the bare wire on the wiper shoe is connected and a wire(s) will be attached to the frame of the unit. either of these not connected will keep the bonus from scoring. a pic or post of the lights section of the schematic would help if you still need more help.

Attached is a schematic of the lights showing the game over lights and ball in play lights. Really getting frustrated with this....the only relay in the path is R (hold relay). When this relay is pulled the game over light stays off. Again, when I turn the machine off and then power back on the game over light is on because R is not pulled in yet. There is no game over relay unless it is called something else......the hold relay is the only thing I can find directly related to the game over light. I still cannot get the ball in play lights nor match lights to come on.

 

[Sonora70]

another view...

 

[pinballdaveh]

i agree with you the schematic shows only the R hold relay when not pulled in lights the game over light , but when its pulled in the match lights should come on , which isnt right. there should be another switch in this circuit. to help finding out if this is correct connect a alligator jumper from the blk-red 6v common wire to the wh common wire on the match unit disc. match lights should come on. next move the clip off the match unit and connect it to the wh wire on the male jones plug. match lights should still come on. next move the clip off of the jones plug and connect it to the wh wire on the R relay switch. if match lights dont come on there is another switch in the circuit that needs to be tracked down by actually following the wh wire thru the wire harness from the R relay switch to the match unit disc. it looks like the R relay is used like a game over relay.the ball in play lights are controlled by a make/break switch on the H relay and a NC switch on the O relay.

 

[Sonora70]

i agree with you the schematic shows only the R hold relay when not pulled in lights the game over light , but when its pulled in the match lights should come on , which isnt right. there should be another switch in this circuit. to help finding out if this is correct connect a alligator jumper from the blk-red 6v common wire to the wh common wire on the match unit disc. match lights should come on. next move the clip off the match unit and connect it to the wh wire on the male jones plug. match lights should still come on. next move the clip off of the jones plug and connect it to the wh wire on the R relay switch. if match lights dont come on there is another switch in the circuit that needs to be tracked down by actually following the wh wire thru the wire harness from the R relay switch to the match unit disc. it looks like the R relay is used like a game over relay.the ball in play lights are controlled by a make/break switch on the H relay and a NC switch on the O relay.

Will do...I will hopefully get back to it tomorrow evening...Thanks.

 

[Sonora70]

i agree with you the schematic shows only the R hold relay when not pulled in lights the game over light , but when its pulled in the match lights should come on , which isnt right. there should be another switch in this circuit. to help finding out if this is correct connect a alligator jumper from the blk-red 6v common wire to the wh common wire on the match unit disc. match lights should come on. next move the clip off the match unit and connect it to the wh wire on the male jones plug. match lights should still come on. next move the clip off of the jones plug and connect it to the wh wire on the R relay switch. if match lights dont come on there is another switch in the circuit that needs to be tracked down by actually following the wh wire thru the wire harness from the R relay switch to the match unit disc. it looks like the R relay is used like a game over relay.the ball in play lights are controlled by a make/break switch on the H relay and a NC switch on the O relay.

Update:
I used the clips and the match lights come on when directly connecting the blk-red wire to the white wire at the match unit disc, jones plug and when I connect to the white wire on the relay switch. However, when the relay is pulled in the blk-red wire is separated from the white wire. The make break switch is blk-red, bl-wh, white. So....when the relay is pulled the bl-wh wire is making contact with the white leaving the blk-red out, therefore removing the 6 volts from the circuit which doesn't allow the lights to come on.

Is it possible that the bl-wh wire should be picking up the 6v through the ball count unit? It looks as though it may. However, I did check the switches mentioned that should work the ball in play lights and they look to be correct....however still no ball in play lights. Could there be a problem in this unit somewhere?

 

[pinballdaveh]

is there any change when the balls to play jack is moved from 3 to 5 balls and back again? does the ball in play unit have its frame common wire attached (usually near the coil mounting frame)? have you checked the switches on the back of the ball in play unit? you can try reversing the 1st and 2nd wires on the R relay make/break switch and check results. has the bonus scan 6v relay issue been solved?

 

[Sonora70]

is there any change when the balls to play jack is moved from 3 to 5 balls and back again? does the ball in play unit have its frame common wire attached (usually near the coil mounting frame)? have you checked the switches on the back of the ball in play unit? you can try reversing the 1st and 2nd wires on the R relay make/break switch and check results. has the bonus scan 6v relay issue been solved?

I have moved the balls to play jack from 3 to 5 balls and back again, no change. The ball in play unit has a bare wire connected from one of the post with the spring on the bottom to the center plate. I do not see another wire going to the bracket near the coil. I have checked and cleaned the switches on the ball count unit.

I can try to reverse the wires this evening....thought about that last night. I inspected and couldn't tell that it had been altered. Question however, if they are reversed would the match lights and game over light stay on during the entire game?

The bonus scan has not been solved.....I've been focusing, trying to make sense, out of why the lights are not working.

Thanks for your help with this.....eager to get this one figured out.

 

[pinballdaveh]

does your machine have this brown-wh wire coming out of the harness connecting to the frame in another location? see pic lower right side. does the tilt light come on when the tilt hold relay releases?

 

[Sonora70]

does your machine have this brown-wh wire coming out of the harness connecting to the frame in another location? see pic lower right side. does the tilt light come on when the tilt hold relay releases?

I don't recall/believe I have the brown-wh wire as you do. I'll check that out this evening.

I have purposely tilted the machine and the tilt light does come on, the tilt light is automatically on when I turn the machine on.

 

[Sonora70]

does your machine have this brown-wh wire coming out of the harness connecting to the frame in another location? see pic lower right side. does the tilt light come on when the tilt hold relay releases?

I was wrong, there is a brown-wh wire coming out of the harness connecting to the frame just like the one in your picture. I was hoping that would be my issue.
I'm still stuck......no ball in play lights, no match lights, no game over light. Should I turn my focus more onto the ball in play lights to see if that influences the others? I've checked the switches in the schematic path but still no progress. I'm beginning to wonder is the ball in play unit was taken apart at some point and then put back together incorrectly creating an issue that the contacts are not aligned as they should be.

 

[pinballdaveh]

here is what to try next. connect your alligator jumper from the blk-red 6v common to the ball count unit frame. check if all ball count lights work and game over light works correctly in each step of the unit. next move the jumper off the frame and connect it to the br+wh switch wire on the O relay , check for lights. next move jumper off O relay switch and on to the wh-bl switch wire on the H relay and check for lights. post results. do you understand this technique of powering something and backtracking to find where the break or problem is.

 

[Sonora70]

here is what to try next. connect your alligator jumper from the blk-red 6v common to the ball count unit frame. check if all ball count lights work and game over light works correctly in each step of the unit. next move the jumper off the frame and connect it to the br+wh switch wire on the O relay , check for lights. next move jumper off O relay switch and on to the wh-bl switch wire on the H relay and check for lights. post results. do you understand this technique of powering something and backtracking to find where the break or problem is.

I understand the technique, although I would have never tried applying the 6v lead to the frame. Not confident is problem solving enough to try to in all situations.

Results:
Connected the jumper to the frame...got lights. connected to the br-wh switch on O.....got lights. Connected to wh-blu wire on H and no lights.

 

[pinballdaveh]

next jumper the br+wh wire and the wh-bl wires on the O relay NC switch , if ball in play lights come on as they should you found the problem. lightly file clean switch , tighten stack , re-gap switch if needed.

 

[Sonora70]

next jumper the br+wh wire and the wh-bl wires on the O relay NC switch , if ball in play lights come on as they should you found the problem. lightly file clean switch , tighten stack , re-gap switch if needed.

Positive results! I placed the jumper on the br-wh wire and the wh-bl wire and the ball in play lights came on. Frustrating because I had already cleaned that switch. After I cleaned it again the lights still did not work. I then cleaned with a piece of sand paper rather than my file and it worked. I will also note that along with the ball in play lights, the match and game over lights are also now working.

I went back to my schematic and followed the path both with the jumper wires and connecting the switch on O relay to the match, game over, and ball in play lights. The advice you gave with the jumper wires helped my understanding of the schematic.

Now.....the bonus unit and scoring. I went back to my manual and it clearly states "Bonus value is 1000 points for each lit ball in rack. Bonus is scored after completion of ball in play." I'm not getting any points after the ball drains. I've studied my schematic and I can't see/understand the logic. I'm sure something should be happening because the bonus unit fires 15 times after each ball, I assume that as it moves though the unit that it should give 1000 points for each lit ball as it gets to them?

 

[pinballdaveh]

the Z relay coil is one of the few ac relay coils that does not work off of the normal coil voltage. (the series relay is another relay that does not work off of full coil voltage either). when the bonus unit scans , the wiper finger is looking for 6v charged rivets that come from lit bonus rack lights. because of this low 6v , the rivets on the disc must be clean and shinned up to avoid any voltage drop. connect the alligator clip jumper from the blk-red 6v common wire to the yel-red wire on the Z relay coil. the coil should pull in and may score 1000 points. if the coil does not pull in the coil is bad and needs to be replaced. if the Z relay coil pulls in , move the jumper from the blk-red wire and connect it to the bonus unit frame where a sl-red wire should be attached. have some ball rack lights lit , drain ball and check for Z relay pulsing and scoring bonus points. if it now does work check the switch on gear side of the bonus unit ( called ON ADD BONUS UNIT ). the switch will have sl-red and yel-red wires going to it. clean and adjust switch if needed. post results.

 

[Sonora70]

Progress. The z coil did pull and score. I then moved the jumper to the unit frame and it scored once. I tried to repeat with no luck. I then touched the post with the spring and it scored. I determined it was a combination of the post not making contact with the rivets and the switch needing to be adjusted and cleaned a bit. Apparently someone at some point had soldered a stiff piece of wire to the top of the post going to one of the 3 screws. The wire was holding the post up off the rivets. I'll solder a new flexible piece of wire and then it should be in working order.

Thanks much for your help! The tips you have shared have not only solved these problems but have also taught me alot about reading a schematic and trouble shooting. Again, thanks for sharing your expertise.

 

[pinballdaveh]

congrats on figuring out the last piece of the puzzle. i have found out that de-soldering braid or wick is a good replacement for the bare wire used on the snow shoe wiper discs. if you do your own board repairs you prob. have some of it already.