The Universe is big...Really?

10,000-odd sheets of paper (103^2) indeed does not seem to be up to snuff, but i didn't watch the video yet.

oh, wait... maybe that should be 2^103
 
When I was in Boy Scouts (a very brief time) We had a contest to fold a news paper the most times. The stated objective was actually to the smallest square or rectangle. I don't remember how many folds that was but I won the contest and the prize which turned out to be an empty measuring tape casing.

I won by soaking the paper and applying as much pressure as I could on each fold.


Query Ike, What does the 2 represent in your equation. I suspect that number is paper thickness? An arbitrary number greater than 1 so to expound?
 
2^x simply means 2 multiplied by itself x times, thus 2^4 = 2*2*2*2. So 2^103 is 2 mulpiplied by itself 103 times.
 
earlier tonight i folded a piece of paper six times and tried to cut it in half in order to count the ply. since everyone knows i'm an idiot, i slipped when sawing it with a bread knife and gave myself a pretty nice gash on left index finger. so if my jaw starts clenching later on, i'll have a... not so amazing story to tell. :p
 
Face palm slap...so is it that you don't second guess the Universe with a piece of paper and a bread knife? :D
 
just looking for opportunities to be an idiot. :)


btw, i thought of a name for shockman when he's in a good mood-- philharmonic. hurray or boo/hiss...?


btw it's "boy sprouts," not "boy scouts." *ahem*
 
The more interesting math problem would be to try and calculate the size of the sheet of paper needed in order to be cut in half 103 times? You would have to start by figuring out how small it would have to be in order to still be called "paper"? A single molecule of cellulose?
 
considering that the observable universe is pretty much the most unknown quantity of all, i reckon you can call it whatever you wish there, mister.

(voice of JW)
 
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considering that the observable universe is pretty much the most unknown quantity of all, i reckon you can call it whatever you wish there, mister.

No, the question is what is the smallest size you could have and still call it a sheet of paper. Then you would double that 103 times, divide by 2 and that would give you the sides of the square of paper needed to be able to fold in half 103 times and end up with a stack taller than the observable universe.

It's going to be a huge square of paper, but just how big?

If you use a few molecules of cellulose wide as the smallest width to still be called paper, say 2 nanometers, you would need to start with a square sheet of paper about 1 million light years on each side in order to fold it 103 times.

Oh, and I'd agree the actual size of the universe might be a big unknown, how much of it we can see (the observable part) isn't that hard to figure out.
 
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*hhh* science and humor are not the best combination, perhaps.

anyway, what if the paper was made out of graphene? what then, matey?


btw i actually did make paper once. it's not hard at all when you start with paper scraps, which already have the binding agents built-in. you can toss them in the cuisinart and run them over large filter of choice, then let dry. a pretty fun project, if i may say.
 
*hhh* science and humor are not the best combination, perhaps.

Douglas Adams rolls in his grave.......


Since the original premise is based on some kind of paper 0.1 mm thick I'm only talking about the other 2 dimensions, the minimum size necessary at the end of the "folding" for it to still be recognized as the original paper. So the type probably doesn't matter that much since most stuff used as "paper" has fairly large molecules.

I think the only type of "paper" that could really go any smaller would be diamond sheet.

Kind of hard to "fold" though. But breaking in half and stacking, no problem.

On another note, last week I printed out a 3D model of the nebula around Eta Carinae that NASA released. What I printed out is about 5 cm across, or about 1/100,000,000,000,000th scale....
 
douglas adams, come on now. try some harry harrison or PKD some time!

i don't really understand your pt in paragraph two... guess i'll take your word for it?

i was looking at the microcenter circular the other day and boggled at the cost and availability of 3D printers these days. unbelievable. how much does the... substrate or whatever it's called cost, tho?
 
douglas adams, come on now. try some harry harrison or PKD some time!

I don't think either of those write science fiction comedy? But I'm not familiar with Harrison. I have read just about everything Alan Dean Foster has written. His commonwealth of planets is fantastic, with humans partnering with the giant insect like Thranx.

i don't really understand your pt in paragraph two... guess i'll take your word for it?
Doesn't matter, it's all just one of those take a penny and double it every day type exorcizes. I got it into my head thinking of how small could you have a piece of paper and still call it that.

i was looking at the microcenter circular the other day and boggled at the cost and availability of 3D printers these days. unbelievable. how much does the... substrate or whatever it's called cost, tho?
That's where I got my kit, the Printrbot simple maker is $350, only a 4x4x4 inch print area but it's really good for learning what works and what doesn't. There are so many variables, speed, temperature, layer height. I've been looking at them for a couple of years now, the new kit at that price was too hard to resist. It's a complicated kit, laser cut wood frame, took me about 7 hours to put it all together. For $600 they have one that is prebuilt, in metal, and has a 6x6x6 inch printable area.

The simple one I have doesn't have a heated printing surface, so it's limited to PLA plastic, you can get a 1 kg spool of it for $20 now, and you can build a lot of stuff with 1 kg of plastic. Most things you print are only a few grams each. You can also get a lot of different colors now.
 
interesting... thx for the details. 4x4x4 seems pretty durned big to me. i wonder how durable the tougher plastics get...? IIRC ppl were trying to make guns with these things from the get go.

i'm a little tempted, but need to finish mastering this ableton music mixer i got myself last month. i should probably watch some of hakkyoku seiken's youtube channel for tips. (VP guy, but i don't know if he posts anymore)

PKD had an enormous amt of humor in his SF, but harrison definitely had the outright comedy in such stuff as "bill the galactic hero" and the stainless steel rat series. PKD was more of the psychologist and ideas man, harry was a guy who used a lot of hard science and engineering principles.

i read some of foster's star trek novelisations a long time ago. i should see if there's e-editions of the commonwealth stuff.
 
interesting... thx for the details. 4x4x4 seems pretty durned big to me. i wonder how durable the tougher plastics get...? IIRC ppl were trying to make guns with these things from the get go.

ABS is the more durable one most people print with, but it requires a heated surface to print on or it will not stick, if the first layer doesn't stick you get a big ball of spaghetti instead of your object. By the end of the summer Printrbot is supposed to have a headed bed version of the simple out for something like $700. You could add a headed bed to the smaller one, would take about $100 to $150 worth of parts.

Less common plastic I've heard of people using is Nylon, that pushes the limits of the home printers. But just about anything that melts in the 180 to 250 C range is possible.

The gun thing makes headlines but is pointless, these printers are slow, I'd guess it would take several days to print the parts for a gun (took me 12 hours to print a TARDIS that was only 10% filled). And from what I've read you have to print a barrel for each bullet, and you only get one shot then you have to rebuild the gun. A drill press and some blocks of stronger plastic would be way easier...


PKD had an enormous amt of humor in his SF, but harrison definitely had the outright comedy in such stuff as "bill the galactic hero" and the stainless steel rat series. PKD was more of the psychologist and ideas man, harry was a guy who used a lot of hard science and engineering principles.

i read some of foster's star trek novelisations a long time ago. i should see if there's e-editions of the commonwealth stuff.
I looked up Harrison, that stainless steel rat stuff looks interesting.

I think most of Foster's Pip & Flinx series is out in e-book, along with a bunch of others set in the commonwealth (Midworld is a good one out on e-book), the founding of the commonwealth series is pretty good. My favorite book of his is not out in e-book, Sentenced To Prism, I got a Brittish hard cover of it from him signed a few years ago when he was cleaning out his excess inventory. That world is very cool, mix of silicon and carbon based life, lots of neat solar powered lifeforms. He has also done straight up fantasy, his Spellsinger series is just as good as his hard sci-fi stuff. He is known for all the novelizations he has done, but those I don't find as interesting as his other works.

I started reading Discworld a few years ago, got through only about a half dozen of them so far, kind of stalled reading that series, there's just too many of them.... That's a different kind of comedy, not as laugh until it hurts like Adams.

I got hooked on a fantacy series by an unknown guy that was getting nowhere with publishers and decided to go the Amazon e-book route, and is now doing it full time, really interesting stuff. Look up Trevor Cooley, his e-books are $1 to $4.

I had ordered S by JJ Abrams so long ago I was surprised when it arrived, haven't gotten around to starting it yet, I've had several suggestions on different ways to read it, most radical seems to be to remove all the extra stuff that is stuffed into the pages and set them aside, read the main text first ignoring the stuff in the margins, then put all the extra stuff back in and re-read it along with that stuff and the "hand-written" notes in the margins.
 
My guess would be the smallest you can get and still call it paper would me a piece that still had molecules of each component, and the molecular properties (binding etc.) still occurring.
 
re: 3D printing,
thanks again. so it takes a long time to print stuff, okay. i knew it had to be something like that considering the crazy low unit prices(!) i guess the other issue for me would be how many prefab designs are out there, as well as how much work it would be to design my own. i mean, i find CAD and such extremely tedious and would barely be able to get anything done that way.


re: discworld,
you mean the graphic novel series by terry pratchett, or were you still talking foster? i've read a couple of the pratchett ones, in any case. seemed good, not quite great.


@jj abrams,
as an artist-type i really love that sort of quandary... i wonder if there's any chance a library could keep a copy of that without it getting mangled or emptied out? :p took me a little while to find the WP page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._(Dorst_novel)

reminds me a little of a couple books i had by kit williams, once. there were both lushly-illustrated weird folk tales, but also complicated puzzles that if solved revealed the location of buried treasure.
 
re: 3D printing,
thanks again. so it takes a long time to print stuff, okay. i knew it had to be something like that considering the crazy low unit prices(!) i guess the other issue for me would be how many prefab designs are out there, as well as how much work it would be to design my own. i mean, i find CAD and such extremely tedious and would barely be able to get anything done that way.

There is a ton of stuff to download out there, I've been printing probably 2/3 stuff I've downloaded and the rest I've done in CAD myself.

yeggi.com is a good place to search for printable stuff.

re: discworld,
you mean the graphic novel series by terry pratchett, or were you still talking foster? i've read a couple of the pratchett ones, in any case. seemed good, not quite great.
Yes, the Terry Pratchett series, although I wasn't aware any of them were graphic novels (but I vaguely remember that part of the series was done as books for children), all the ones I've read are standard novels. They certainly are hit or miss, I've tried to hit the ones that people recommend, so far the top 3 I'd recommend to others would be:

Going Postal
Hogfather
Wyrd Sisters
 
I do believe the smallest "sheet of paper" would be 2 molecules x 2 molecules. Anything less would either not have width or depth, and I am assuming that a sheet is an array of molecules, not a single molecule.
The value of 2 x 2 can be very useful.

And 3D printers are slow and will remain slow until true holographic projection is perfected, but that will require the mastering of heat as well as light or ultraviolet light. I believe that heat as used currently is a blunt force and not applied as a finite form of imaging.

But they are doing amazing experiments with 3D printers now, actually building some working body parts from living cells.


Oh shit! They took the 3D printer too...oh well. I still have solid state locomotion....
 
Paper = a molecular compound?

Hey Ike. Running paper through the cuisinart, any paper, tissue or newsprint, run through to fuzz also makes a pretty good paper machete base. Most newspapers are cold press ink. It comes right off when rinsed with cold water. I think that was developed for recycling purposes.
You can either rinse the paper first, then allow to dry before grinding it up in a dry blender, else wash the fuzzy pulp after grinding it up and squeeze drain it before adding starch binders, corn starch cooked with water, or a blend of corn starch and baking soda. Else flour. Homemade flour paste.
Haven't used it in over 30 years.

I also tried paper machete once using diluted Elmer's Glue All, diluted with water enough to not be a problem while working it with my hands.

I've also been meaning to try melting plastic t-shirt grocery bags in a double boiler just to see if I could melt it and cast anything with it, but the law then banned them.
 
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I don't think a double boiler would get hot enough for any plastic to be cast. You can soften a lot of plastics at 100 °C but to get them to melt so you can reform them you'd need higher temperature. You've got to get in the 130 to 180 °C range even for low density polyethylene.

I don't see how holographic imaging could solve the 3D printer speed problem, it would require the resin to be far too selective in what wavelengths it reacts to. It might be possible to create that kind of resin, but that normally comes at the cost of rate of reaction, so you would still need to form the image for a long time in the resin for the part to become solid. The current light based 3D printers people are building now use HD projectors and do layer by layer on the surface of the resin, pumping in the resin to raise the level for the next layer. They make beautiful high detail stuff, but not something I'd want to mess with at home.

And only the home printers are really slow, if you want to spend many thousands on an industrial printer they are much faster.

The bioprinters are amazing, there's a company that is printing liver tissue, if you build an organ from someone's own cells theoretically you don't have rejection issues.
 
Paper mills are some of the stinky places to work. I have done industrial coating at sewage treatment plants and paper (cardboard) mills and the paper plants have the same smell only amplified like maybe 2^103
 
I know. Layer by layer like a CAT Scan to 3D conversion.
But there may be value in applying energy to the material, like pumping a L.A.S.E.R. with electrons.
 
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