VP9 Issues

[Itchigo]

Can someone please tell me why almost all of my VP9 Games have plunger problems? It's not a matter of the plunger being strong enough, the ball goes up and comes back down. On some games like Spiderman the ball goes up only a short distance, like there was an obstruction. Power is NOT an issue. Jokerz, Corvette, and others do this as well.

 

[jpsalas]

Be sure you are running V9 exe file. What you describe it looks to me like you load a vp9 table into VP8 and the ball hit some ring or decoration which is set to be non collidable in VP9, but under VP8 that wall will be collidable and the ball will hit it.

So first, be sure you are running the vp9 tables under VP9.
The latest version is 9.0.7 and can be downloaded from here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/vpinball/

JP

 

[Itchigo]

Thanks for the help, the collidable/noncollidable part sounds exactly like what I see happening. I don't know if I mentioned it or not but I'm using VP9.05 or 03 (most of the problem tables won't even start in VP8), but thanks for the link to 07 I got it (was wondering where to get it). I'll try it tonight and let you know.

 

[Itchigo]

I tried VP9.07 and still have the same problem. Ali works, but the drop targets are not collidable. Spiderman, the plunger won't shoot the ball (again collidable issues on the ramp), and a few others. Blackout wonks fine though.

 

[jpsalas]

Now I'm 100% sure you are running the tables with VP8 or older. You are not using the new VP9.<?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o></o>
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The reason you are not able to hit the targets if because those targets are made of two dropwalls, one for the body and one to the top of the target. The top of the target is set in the editor as non-collidable, so the ball ignores that wall, goes through it and hit the real target. This works only under VP9, and not in VP8, since this is a new feature of VP9.
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So be sure you are running the tables with VP9. If you are using a front end you'll need to adjust it. Otherwise just run the VP9 exe file and use open, find the file and run it. It will work.<o></o>
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JP

 

[Itchigo]

This is what I'm doing: click on VP 9.07 (shortcut on desktop) file, open, click on the game, then play. Then I either have the plunger problem or the drop target problem.

 

[jpsalas]

Ok, here you have a test table.

It has one wall in the plunger lane. This wall has the collidable atribute removed, so in VP9 the ball will go through the wall, like it wasn't there.

But in VP8 the ball will hit the wall, since VP8 doesn't have this collidable attribute, it is a new feature of VP9.

Try it.
If the ball hit the wall you know you are running VP8.
If the ball goes through the wall then you are running VP9.

JP

 

[Itchigo]

Ok, I tried the test table. As you said VP8 doesn't work, VP9 does. I forgot to mention that before the games start I get a " Please be aware the sounds emulations are not working properly" but the sound works just fine. In VP 9.07 Spiderman fs works, well the other version does not. But the fs version is turned 90 degrees, how can I turn the table the right way? I'm running a HP Pavillion 4/3 monitor with xp home. I only have less than 10 Vp9 games, but Biggame, and Blackout (excellent job on these) are running just fine with no adjustments of any kind (in VP9). I also have 5 or 6 tables in VP8 that have no game sounds (only flipper, bumper, slingshot and plunger sounds, but not game sounds just the mechanical sound of the object). I'l check the sound roms to make sure everything is there, but I'm pretty sure that they have everything the game is asking for unless the sound roms are supposed to be in the samples folder.tudy:

 

[jpsalas]

Now you know, play VP9 tables with VP9 and older tables with VP8.

The "FS" (FS = Full Screen) versions are meant to be used with a wide monitor (mostly in cabinets) and they are turned 90 degrees. If you have a 4:3, as you said, then you don't need to download the FS versions since they are not for your monitor. Just dowload the normal versions.

I guess you may need to turn up the volume on some of the ROMs. To do that, on most of the ROMS, you press then "END" key, then 9 to increase the volume and 8 to reduce it. A volume value of 27 use to sound the best.

JP

 

[Itchigo]

That's what I've been doing all along, but thanks for trying, and thanks for the volume info. I figured the fs were for a different purpose, but like I said the fs version plunger works, the other doesn't. I'll try redownloading the game again but I've done that before.

 

[Itchigo]

Regarding the volume, do I press end while the game is running (nothing happens), or go to the rom itself and click on that (if I do that it says it can't open the file). I don't mean to sound stupid, but I don't know this stuff that well. I tried this on Stars and Nugent. Thanks.

 

[Itchigo]

I redownloaded the games from your site. For some reason now they want to work, except Jokerz and Dracula VP9. Jokerz still has the plunger problem, and Dracula - I don't know, can't find the roms even though the line it says it's trying to find them on matches identically to where they are (c/ doc and set/ ad/ vp/ roms. I'll mess with that later, thanks for all your help. We'll call it a success.

 

[Itchigo]

Any Idea why I'm getting a "can't create offscreen surface" on the tables we were just working on in VP9? I redownloaded them yesterday and they worked- today-NOT! I've never gotten this code before for these games and haven't changed anything. I know (have been told) that this code pertains to not enough video memory, but I've started these 20 times or more to fix the plunger with no problems. Sometimes I have to click 7 or 8 times to get rid of the error message, then Vp 9.07 closes on it's own.

 

[faralos]

make sure that HD render is UNchecked on the right in the editor options, at times when I am working on a wip this box will get checked by VP9 all by itself, then when i go to playtest it, it either will crash to desktop or I'll get that message that you got. so always look to make sure it stays unchecked, both VP8 and VP9 (all versions of vp9) do this it magically will check itself at times when working on a table. usually when I put something onto the actual table it checks itself, don't know why this occurs but now that i know about it I always look to make sure it's UNchecked before hitting play.

 

[GSGregg]

Sorry if I'm bumping an old thread whose solution has been reached, but I have a different take on the plunger problem. (While I was reading through the posts, I downloaded the test-wall from jpsalas' post; more on that in a bit)

When I joined VPF, I used their package to install VP8 and VP9.02 plus the update 9.05 (9.07 wasn't out yet and I haven't updated because my small collection doesn't yet include any VP9 tables). The first table I downloaded was PacDude's Centaur and because my video card was low-grade, I tried several things looking for improvement, and one of them was playing the VP8 table under VP9. I know....not recommended.

Anyway, by experimenting with 'pullback', I was able to get the ball beyond the shooter lane maybe 10% of the time. Sometimes it almost got there, sometimes it reversed barely off the plunger tip, and the rest of the time it would reverse anywhere in between. I've read that the ball is larger in VP9, so my question is; does VP9 enlarge the ball on a rendered VP8 table and thereby allow the plunger to strike the ball below center? Because the behavior is exactly like that of a draw-shot in pool. Hard release = heavy backspin, and soft release = light backspin. Of course, if I play the game in VP8 where it belongs, plunger-induced backspin occurs about as often as a lunar eclipse....I can live with it.

Re the test-wall: When I opened the file, it opened VP (didn't notice which version) but the wall didn't show up in the Tables list. Does it automatically insert itself into whichever table I select, or did I mess up the download somehow?

GSG

 

[Itchigo]

Not a problem. The ball is different (I've heard) but there are other collideable issues as well. The ball will pass through an object in vp8 and not in vp9 depending on the object and the game. I've heard there are other things as well. The problem I had was in the plunger lane if there was an object at a different height such as a cover or a ramp in the plunger lane the ball would hit it and come back. (Didn't think about this but that could go along with a bigger ball too). But this happened in vp9 as well not allowing me to play the game. They didn't understand that I WAS playing in vp9 and still getting the problem. I redownloaded the game a few times and then 1 more time and it started working for some reason unknown. As for the "english" on the ball the logic seems correct but I don't know enough yet to answer that. Forgot to tell you make sure HDRender is UNCHECKED in vp9. If you have low video memory this helps because I've been told that with it checked the video card makes the picture, unchecked the cpu does which probably has more power.

 

[Shockman]

The ball passes through gaps in VP8, not objects that have collision detection. VP would just not work at all if that was the case. There are exceptions, but they are caused by more than just a failure of the collision detection. Something else is going on at the time.
The difference there is that in VP8 it will pass through gaps that are smaller that the ball, and in VP9 that is not suppose to happen. It can go through gaps and even solid objects in VP9 as well, and you could prove that yourself by having a flipper push a ball into a solid object with or without a gap. If VP8 the flipper will jam, the ball will jam, and everything is Ok, because that is what happens in the real world. Flip the flipper up and the ball is free. Try that with VP9, it will not work The ball will go trough the flipper or the object.

The top flipper in Mr.& Mrs. Pacman for example. If the ball gets stuck under the flipper in VP6 all is fine and realistic, and the ball is easily freed. In VP9 the ball that is against the solid object will not stop the flipper like you would hope and expect. This is the behavior of the relative programs, not any construction techniques. That is why, in my opinion VP6 is superior in some very important physics models.

As for the ball being bigger in VP9, that causes issues as well with VP8 designs. This issue is indeed collisions with objects.

If a wall is too low in VP8 for a VP9 sized ball. The ball will not go under it when played in VP9. This is not a bug in VP9. It's a re-design, and a good one. because if you have a ball in contact with a wall, you should want a reaction. The wall will need to be raised if you play that in table with VP9.

 

[GSGregg]

Mm-hmm. I thought it sounded as though a physical obstruction, or an emulation of one, was being described. But Centaur has nothing over the shooter lane but a thin metal (I think) brace a few inches short of where the lane curves toward the upper playfield; it provides stability for the inner wall(?) of the shooter lane by its connection to the right rail, (Darn---I've never given nomenclature much thought, as is probably apparent) and the brace looks well above ball level.

Having composed the previous post from memory, I figured I'd better brush up, so I played a dozen or so games; in VP8 everything was normal, and in VP9 the backspin was pretty much as I had described (but maybe not as much as 90%) for three or four games and then, oddly, began to clear up somewhat. Go figure.

I also looked for the test-wall file everywhere from C:\ to the VP folders and found no trace of it....should I have?

And finally, I'd like to get a better grasp on some of the things being discussed, such as 'walls' (they're not this type, but what are they?) Is there a single source with which I could bone up on fundamentals, or should I just do a word-by-word "what is...?" web search?

GSG

Edit: Sorry, shockman---you posted while I was composing. Reading now.

 

[Shockman]

I don't understand what you are seeing that you would describe as backspin. I've not noticed spin on a VPinball.

Even in VP9, if the ball is launched with enough force it will clear the lane if unobstructed.
Don't judge by appearance. Appearance is deceiving. Click on the strap and check that the bottom of it is high enough.

And one last word about stress.

"This is only an issue in VP8. No known fix."

Stress is not reason or excuse to start a discussion about the ball through the flipper problem off with a post like this.

First it is not only an issue with VP8. It has been an issue with every incarnation of VP that ever was, up until VP9. Second it does not have to happen, and many call this fact a fix. This is splitting hair, but implies that there is nothing that could be done about it. If running a site causes stress, it is ran for the wrong reason in my opinion.

Some of the hardest work I do, some of the hardest problems In programming, relieves stress, because I enjoy doing it, and it does not matter if it is done at any certain point in time.

I think saying things you know are untrue are more stressful than that. Disrespecting someone would be stressful, applying double standards would be stressful, because they would cause worry, but that's just me. Personally I'm surprised he could handle the stress of restoring posts that someone deleted, and refusing to even moderate those of his and destruks that are unkind, untrue, and disrespectful, misleading, a disservice to his members, and uncalled for.

 

[Shockman]

I don't understand what you are seeing that you would describe as backspin. I've not noticed spin on a VPinball.

Even in VP9, if the ball is launched with enough force it will clear the lane if unobstructed.
Don't judge by appearance. Appearance is deceiving. Click on the strap and check that the bottom of it is high enough.

 

[GSGregg]

Hello, Shockman:

While it was I who brought up the (illusion of?) backspin with VP9's plunger, it was somebody else who mentioned ball-through-flipper, stress, the "....only....in VP8. No known fix." quote, disrespect and double-standard issues. In fact, I found no mention of them in this thread before yesterday. I've read a lot of the discussion, though (which I believe started with Ball-through-the-Flipper), and I'm aware of the turmoil it's caused; no wonder it comes to mind so readily.

As far as backspin goes, you've probably seen pool-shooters who can shoot the cueball into open space on the felt and have it reverse direction without contacting anything else, and the same thing happens on real pins if, for instance, the plunger shaft is bent or its bushing is worn. It's true that a ball launched with sufficient force (to mimmick ESPN's Chris Berman) Will....Be....On....Its....Way!, but the force we can impart to a virtual plunger is limited to the programmed-in strength of the plunger spring itself. Any way we can do a palm-slam on VP's plungers?

Would be interesting if there is virtual backspin after all, as an unexpected or unintentional aspect of very thorough ball physics.

Been nice ranting for you, sir. Enjoy the West Coast!

GSG

 

[Shockman]

Yes, I understand spin physics, just never saw it in VP.
I thought I was editing another post when I added that second part. And I thought i deleted it from this thread, but I guess I forgot to save.
Thanks. I'm off in a couple of hours. I'm going to take a boat ride up the Delta before I leave, in case I don't make it back for a while.

 

[Itchigo]

I have seen ball "spin" or english only in the way it bounces not the physical ball spinning. I also have seen the ball through the flipper on occasion, but not very often. Although I must admit it happens on the same games and not on others. I don't think I've seen it in VP9, but haven't paid enough attention to it. The games it happens on, it happens in the same spot on the flipper.

 

[GSGregg]

Hello, Itchigo:

I may have seen evidence of spin (by the ball's behavior/bounces), but I can't recall where. Maybe Pure Pinball or Pro Pinball or some such game; but I don't recall it in my meager collection of VP/VPM. Unless there is 'dirt' on the ball, the visible surface might as well be in stasis.

(Brief slightly-off-topic story); I was playing Popotte's FP Fireball Home Version and had caught the ball at the left inlane (the ball had completely stopped) and I saw something spinning on/in the center of the ball. It looked to me like a clutch(?) of moth eggs; I figured it was supposed to be a reflection, but everything that was likely to be reflected....was stationary! In a few seconds, the spinning slowed and stopped. Just another go figure moment, I guess.

As I described in VPF's Visual Pinball>'ball goes through flipper' thread (post #27, page 2), my BTFs occur in any of three scenarios, two of which I can avoid if I'm soberand the third (destruk's 'soap bubbles melting together') being fairly rare. In my case, there doesn't appear to be any particular point on the flipper at which stuff happens; it's just 'wrong technique, wrong time'.

I do not yet have any VP9 tables, but I'm happy to take the word of the Creators who say 'no problem'. As to backspin off the plunger, the only 'recent' tables I have are Centaur and Twilight Zone, and Centaur is the only one with the event (come to think of it, the 'skill shot' in TZ discourages a full-strength plunge...). Of my older tables, none have issues except for Hi-Lo Ace; the plunged ball is repelled by the gate at the top of the shooter lane. Every Time. Of course, all of this backspin/collision stuff is with VP8 tables played under VP9; play them where they belong, and all is well.

Cheers;

G

 

[faralos]

I have experienced balls going thru solid walls already while programming in VP9. it happens at wierd times too not every time. also I can have two ramps with their ends at the exact same spot and randomly (about 1 in 20) a ball will find its way in between them to fall to the lower playfield. again only with vp9. with vp8 I have encountered in numerous pins (but again always the same ones and always in the same place) the 'ball thru the flipper', too.