VPF with another internal server error

The expenses at VPFF didn't really add up, Alex said they were only about $12.00 a month for the last year it was open. It closed because the place had turned into a useless outhouse and no one wanted to pay even 12 dollars a month to keep it going.

Most people donate to VPF to download VPM tables without a 5 a day limit. Without that rule, I imagine they would have money troubles too. I have no answers for you on how to get people to donate, but I would also hate to constantly plead for donations. Like I said, if there wasn't already 4 other forums, I would help big-time to keep at least one VP forums going, but at the present time, I feel any forums I donate to, would need to reward me with something, at the very least it should bring a little joy or fun into my life.

I'm not telling people to not donate to shivasite, I'm telling you why I and maybe others, don't donate to shivasite.
 
Grapevine says that VPF is having a tug-of-war for "ownership"... except AJ hasn't really responded/made a decision yet. I won't air their dirty laundry publicly, but I'll share via PM.
 
I don't like to 'bite the hand that feeds me' so to speak, but I must agree with 'phantom' in regards to Randy being a strange one.

It seems inconceivable that someone can be gone without a word for two years and turn up as if they've been away for the weekend, after countless enquiries into his well-being and other more non-altruistic queries.

True, he owes us nothing. He has given us a hell of a lot, his time and expertise with a hobby which enthralls thousands.

True, he is entitled to do whatever he likes with 'his' program. Support it, sell it, or just walk away from it.

True, I am overjoyed he has returned to do some tinkering with the code, and try to breathe some life into the great old-girl (VP). For that he has my utmost thanks.

Before the latest VPF crackup he hadn't been heard from for a week. Is he gone again? Maybe. How would one know? I just think it would be reasonable to let someone know where we stand - one way or another. The 'aloof programmer' bit is getting a bit stale imo.

When and/or if he decides to vanish again, will the VP community be in any better position to keep it running/progressing for the next couple of years.

Has there been any discussion amongst the main players of VP in this regard. There are quite a few people who have dedicated a lot of time and effort into this program other than Randy who would ( I imagine ) like to know the long term plan, if any, he may have for VP.

I originally thought when reading the posts on VPF in that thread on WinXP-SP2 and VP that boy, he must be being overwhelmed by the amount of requests for fixes, problem reports, and new feature implementations and ideas.

After reading further I don't think he reads them much at all.

Aaah well, it is his baby, in all fairness. Whilst he did supply the 'Well', he didn't force us to drink.

Please note - whilst this is mostly off topic and is mainly a response to phantom's post within this thread, I did mention the VPF server crackup somewhere above. :wink:
 
VPFF went to crappy land when it stopped getting exclusive tables. A lot of people stopped going there at that point and all that was left was the regulars that had more fun talking about nothing than pinball. It's somewhat my fault. Going back to VPF was a big part of that, but OTOH, Kristian and I were largely carrying VPFF in a "pinball" sense. Most of the other VPM authors (such as they are) were still at VPF and saw no reason to bother with VPFF as they weren't banned and let's face it, many VPM authors don't really like me (for fairly obvious reasons) and many of the ones I did get along well with have moved on to other things (e.g. Fuseball & Dorsola).

But let's look at this way. Who is making popular tables TODAY? I can name on one hand who they are. All it would really take to move the community is to get those few authors to stop releasing at VPF and release somewhere else instead (maybe excluseive, maybe just NOT at VPF). There ARE a lot of original authors, but that doesn't mean their tables are popular with the masses (they just aren't for the most part). Like it or not VPM is still what draws the crowds (to AJ's even more than VPF itself).

So what's wrong with the picture here? For one thing, Shiva made it clear he saw no point in duplicating AJ's VPM tables and that he thought originals are the future. Well that view isn't going to move mountains since I say most people still want VPM tables more than anything else and AJ's is what draws the crowds AND the donations (it's not to participate at VPF, let me tell you). So if Shivasite were to move, the first thing it HAS to do if it really does want to replace VPF is get a full set of VPM tables to the largest extent possible and make them just as easy to access in a nice simple alphabetical order table like that so you don't have to "hunt" or page down all day long to find the table you're looking for. But that alone won't do it at all unless you get the popular authors to stop releasing at AJ's. This will draw the crowd away from there really quickly and without them, it won't work, IMO.

Now me, I see no reason to do that unless there is a good reason and I'm not convinced having one or two people take over instead of moderating teams is going to result in a BETTER situation than currently exists. VPF finally seems to have their head on straight moderation-wise and I, for one, hate to mess with that at this point, especially when I know Shiva's attitude about certain thread topics and what not you might see in the Outlane is repugnant to him (like it or not, it's a popular board) and worse yet I know Apocalypse doesn't like me period for some reason or the other. The last thing I want to see is for moderation to revert backwards in evolution. I actually prefer the message board HERE to Shivasite for those reasons.

And then there's the "Monopoly" issue. It's no secret Shiva doesn't want VPM tables that aren't 5+ years old on his site period. Monopoly is 3 years old now and it's in VPM just like I predicted it would be (Shiva is the only one that ever said 5 years, but it seeme to get around even VPF that was the date even though the VPM guys said all along their figure was 3 years). That means boycotting AJ's is NOT in my best interests as I'm currently making a Monopoly table and I'd like to eventually make it available and I don't mean 2+ years from now. This really falls back in with the above issue of censorship on topics the board owner might not like or agree with (we saw a hint of that when Mitchell asked Shockman about why he asked for his VPF account to be deleted there and Shiva jumped in and said he wouldn't allow ANY discussion at Shivasite about other boards. I call that CENSORSHIP (with no just cause IMO) and I don't want to support a VP message board that's going to censor topics out of the blue like that (it had nothing to do with foul language, adult material or even 5 year time limits; Shiva just didn't want it discussed on his board).

So call me skeptical about trying to push for Shivasite to get big traffic again. And whether Shiva believes it or not, he DID shut down ShivaSite a few years back and leave the community wondering if that was the end of the VP message board community until AJ moved the database over. I don't know why he calls that "stealing" it now when he made it abudently clear at the time that Shivasite was FINISHED and then turned around a few weeks/months later and said he was starting it up again, but my recollection is quite clear that at the time, AJ preserved the community when it could have fallen apart at that moment.

I'm not saying I like the way AJ is running VPF (he's NOT really running it for the most part), but I do think the current staff is doing a good job moderating for a change and the server issues (and getting the staff access to set up new tables at AJ's) are the ONLY real issues there whereas I'd be concerned that Shivasite would have totally different issues outlined above that have nothing to do with a good server. I also don't care for the egocentric site name, which I've said before. This board (Pinball Nirvana) is at least labeled with PINBALL, not called "Jon & John's Site" or something like that, at which point I'm not sure I'd be participating here as I doubt it'd get any pinball traffic. Shivasite is getting almost no message board traffic. One wonders why that is. I can only state my view of the many reasons why and it's posted above. I'm sure Shiva will disagree and tell me I'm in error or something, but then I know for a fact I'm not the only one with that view (I have talked to a lot of different people in e-mail about a lot of different things over the past couple of years including site issues).

Personally, I'd prefer to see the main pinball site/forums run for & by the people, so to speak (sort of like VPF without AJ and accountable to the users, especially paying users and contributing authors, really), not left purely in the hands of one or two individuals that could then hold the community hostage (not unlike Black & Randy for that matter, whom I tend to believe ARE at this point the same person, personally). But then it's not really up to me. I just make tables. I could just get my own site and release them there like Kurt does for his own tables. I have little doubt I'd have any trouble getting traffic. But then I see little point in paying out money to distribute my own tables that I make no money off of to begin with. Other than some tiny popularity in a tiny niche hobby and whatever donations may go to charity as a result off my tables (I have no idea, really), I don't really get anything out of my tables beyond what I would get making them just for myself (well that and maybe a lot of sources for images that wouldn't be so forthcoming if I kept them to myself like KC does save for his close friends). So really, the "politics" of the forum issues don't and never have affected me as much as someone might want to believe. People go where the good tables are released.
 
There are hell of a lot talented authors creating original tables. I think they're essential to keep this community alive and active, but I totally agree with PD that it's the vpm tables that attract masses.

Is it a good thing or not, I don't know. But when PD's Monopoly gets released it will give another "boost" to VP. Why even argue with this, it's a fact.

I can barely wait myself.
 
by Pacdude
Personally, I'd prefer to see the main pinball site/forums run for & by the people, so to speak (sort of like VPF without AJ and accountable to the users, especially paying users and contributing authors, really), not left purely in the hands of one or two individuals that could then hold the community hostage

EXACTLY!!! And you need enough reasonable people participating to keep the petty pinball politics from splitting the forums into segregated groups. Like it or not, The Loafer is SUPERIOR to anyone else on trying to be fair and he doesn't get caught up into petty arguments or difference of opinions, but he does obviously have to support the Guidelines of VPF and I think he does a pretty good job overall. I hope he doesn't leave as he has suggested was his plan.

Once again... Reread Pacdude's entire post as I think he hit the nail right on the head.
 
Loafer and Lio are perfect admins because they're almost invisible. What there is really to "moderate" at pinball forum anyway?

A bunch of grown up men talking computer pinball. Wow, that's really dangerous stuff. Everything is much calmer and more peaceful now when moderators aren't sticking their nose and overreacting to every little argument. How many years it took to learn this little fact?
 
bob said:
Like it or not, The Loafer is SUPERIOR to anyone else on trying to be fair and he doesn't get caught up into petty arguments or difference of opinions, but he does obviously have to support the Guidelines of VPF and I think he does a pretty good job overall. I hope he doesn't leave as he has suggested was his plan.

I beg to differ on this point.
 
by Kinsey

I beg to differ on this point.


If you disagree with me Kinsey, tell me why... Do you know that The Loafer was one of only 2 people that actually told me my Kinsey joke routine at VPFF wasn't funny or that I shouldn't have done it or that I should not continue them or that it was not nice or whatever, but no one else said anything... The other was Magnox.

I don't want to go back to those days, I think we all have progressed a lot since then. I picked on you then, because I thought you were the problem. I may have been wrong, but you were vocally assuming the leadership role as AJ was invisible then and not "a very busy person" like he is now.
 
As long as a certain someone (whom I'd rather not name in the interest of letting dead horses lie) that banned me from VPF for petty reasons (the e-mail I was shown a year ago that went to AJ said something about as long as I was running around Retrogames telling everyone I was "banned" from VPF, this person figured what the heck and banned me) isn't running VPF, I'm probably not going to complain too much. This person knows who they are and now they should know I know who they are and their petty lies about what happened don't impress me much. The Loafer does a WAY better job than this person ever did.
 
Nice distortion of the facts PacDude. The truth is you don't know everything, and what you do know, you tend to be rather selective on things, without giving out all the story. I guess you learned well from Nicky.

You know what, what you say is correct in some things. All people care about is the games, and all they care about is that it is free. All they want is to take, and the vast majority of them won't lift the slightest finger to help out when needed. The fact that you are whinning yet again about my 5 year policy, which I explained a long time ago, well tough. It's pretty easy to point fingers when you won't be the one that's responsible if something should go wrong.

Personally if you talk the talk, then WALK THE WALK. Nobody is gonna stop you from doing Monolopy, as long as you understand that if theres any ramifications from it, you take the responsibility, if there's any.
As to my plans, well, I actually don't have to tell you, you made it clear that all you want are the tables, and as far as I am concerned, if that's what you want to do, then go right ahead, because all you would do is complain about it anyway. Just understand that anything else is just static, just like it's been for the last 5 plus years of reading posts where you do nothing but complain. You have made it very clear in fact since day one that you don't like me, you have said some nasty, hateful things, and don't particularly care if it's trueful or not. It's not that I don't respect you for your tables, I respect the fact that you do try and help people with problems, but the way you go about doing things, starting with telling people just how much better you would do it then they have, well of course people are gonna get mad. All I have tried to do was have a website, and try and help the community to the best of my abilities, if your ego can't handle it, that's your problem.

There have been a lot of people who came forward to help everyone, and most of them left because they got fed up of listening to the constant complaints, flames and attacks on their character when all they wanted to do was help the community. If you are that dissatisfied, then try and resurrect VPFF, run it yourselves, and take on any of the other responsibities that go with it yourselves.

Don't worry about me, I will be fine, one way or another. I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't lose any sleep over it, though if I was not so important anymore, why do you keep talking about me? If my site was so dead, and I am such a "hated" person, why do you take every oportunity to try and drag me down every chance you get? Ever since I announced that I had decided to release Trigon, the personal attacks seem to have gotten a lot worse. I don't know what your problem is, all it really is is just a orginal game, and as you have pointed out, it's just not as important than a VPM table. I'm gonna finish it, release it, and after a few weeks, people who like orginals will forget it and move on to the next orginal table release.

As Kinsey hinted at before, it appears that VPF will turn into a warzone once again soon. I'm pretty sure you will enjoy watching if/when it happens, you do seem to like stuff like that. Me, I hope we don't have to go through this, this could be one hell of a trainwreck.
 
This thread has gotten a lot more interesting than anything I had read at VPF since I returned. I like both shiva and SmurfDude, not that I agree with everything both of them are saying, but I do like that it hasn't escalated into all out war, although it is close. What I find odd is that the two of you are actually very similar, both highly opinionated and not afraid to say what's on your minds. If either of you start throwing more than insults, make sure Not to aim my way.

John :oldman
 
I know people hate when I address things point-for-point, but accusations demand replies, so it's mostly a bunch of short replies to specific points made by Shiva. Bear with me.


shiva said:
Nice distortion of the facts PacDude. The truth is you don't know everything, and what you do know, you tend to be rather selective on things, without giving out all the story. I guess you learned well from Nicky.

What are you talking about? What distortions? Comparing me to Nicky is more of an insult than anything I've said here, IMO.

The fact that you are whinning yet again about my 5 year policy, which I explained a long time ago, well tough. It's pretty easy to point fingers when you won't be the one that's responsible if something should go wrong.

I'm not "whining" about your 5 year policy, I'm simply pointing out one reason I would have to not post tables exclusively to your site in and effort to "deseat" AJ's VPF as the popular forum. I don't "agree" with your 5 year policy. That's not the same as "whining" about it, which implies something negative about me. If you wish to discuss VPF versus Shivasite, let's discuss it rationally and reasonably, not throw insults or claim insults where none exist.

Personally if you talk the talk, then WALK THE WALK. Nobody is gonna stop you from doing Monolopy, as long as you understand that if theres any ramifications from it, you take the responsibility, if there's any.

I now disclaim ALL of my tables. They don't WORK without VPM and VPM doesn't work without ROMS and the ROMS are not included with the table. It's the user's responsiblity (as with Mame) to obtain legal roms to use with the table. If that is not possible, then they should not use the table. If they do so anyway, it becomes THEIR responsibility. I'm not in the business of dealing roms, just creating functional imitation "models" of tables (like one might do creating a model rocket version of a Space Shuttle or something). I build a table. The VPM team enables emulation and the user must decide if they own the rights to use that rom.

But I was talking about issues in terms of what I have against Shivasite reasserting itself as the primary VP forums over AJ's "VPF" and in those terms, VPF is preferable in that it leaves the time table up to the VPM team.

As to my plans, well, I actually don't have to tell you, you made it clear that all you want are the tables, and as far as I am concerned, if that's

All I want are tables??? I *MAKE* and *SUPPLY* tables, so how could it possibly be that all I want are tables? That doesn't even make sense. That's like telling General Motors all they want is to obtain Mustangs. Maybe the President of GM might want a Mustang too, but that's cetainly not his primary interest and in some ways counterproductive to that interest.

what you want to do, then go right ahead, because all you would do is complain about it anyway. Just understand that anything else is just static, just like it's been for the last 5 plus years of reading posts where you do nothing but complain.

So now all I've done for the past "5 plus years" (I think it's more like 3.5 years in my reality) is "do nothing but complain" ? Does ANYONE here believe that's all I've done the past 3.5 years? I didn't comment on anything during that time, make tables, help other people with various things including their own tables, take over the VBS files, beta-test VPM at times, etc. Hey folks, ALL I did was complain.... I guess I just imagined spending 5 hours recently to help Kurt with the speed issues on CV to name one of the more recent things. LOL.

You have made it very clear in fact since day one that you don't like me,

I don't recall every thinking I don't like you, let alone making that clear 3.5 years ago. I didn't/don't care for some of your positions, opinions and decisions, but I have nothing against you personally. In fact, I recall trying to bring more traffic to your site while VPFF was still active, even. Now why would I do that for someone's site I didn't like? Of course, insulting me here is no way to get on my good side.

you have said some nasty, hateful things

Like what? Seriously, name one thing I've said that is nasty and hateful towards you. Not caring for the name of your web site doesn't count as nasty or hateful, IMO.

problems, but the way you go about doing things, starting with telling people just how much better you would do it then they have, well of course

First you complain that no one will give you ANY feedback on your work and so when I do give you some honest feedback and suggestions, you then accuse me of saying nasty and hateful things? And yet people constantly wonder WHY people don't want to give honest feedback and prefer to just back-pat all the time. Most people don't WANT honesty or true feedback from what I've seen. They want their butts kissed. Your comments here don't exactly lead me to conclude otherwise.

people are gonna get mad. All I have tried to do was have a website, and try and help the community to the best of my abilities, if your ego can't handle it, that's your problem.

You put down AJ's site now constantly here and there (especially here). I'm just listing some honest reservations I have about your own site and some reasons why I think ti's not more popular. I'm not being mean about it. You might think so, but it's not the case, I assure you.

There have been a lot of people who came forward to help everyone, and most of them left because they got fed up of listening to the constant complaints, flames and attacks on their character when all they wanted to do was help the community.

Who are these people? Some of the most helpful people I know in the community left because they were burnt out on VP (e.g. Dorsola & Fuseball). Others like wpcmame are still around, so I don't know who these supposed people are or what *I* had to do with them leaving. Even KC is still around, but too paranoid the Hamburgler is going to try and steal his work to release things publicly (and I had NOTHING to do with breaking any table locks or anything of the sort and if you don't believe me, just look at two tables we both made like NO FEAR and tell me why I'd want to "steal" anything from his tables. LOL.)

If you are that dissatisfied, then try and resurrect VPFF, run it yourselves, and take on any of the other responsibities that go with it yourselves.

I have no interest in VPFF at this point. I don't know where it says in this thread that I do. I said I'd like to see a publicly run and accountable site and that was certainly NOT what VPFF was about.

anymore, why do you keep talking about me? If my site was so dead, and I am such a "hated" person, why do you take every oportunity to try and drag me down every chance you get? Ever since I announced that I had

Who said you were hated? You're the one bringing up VPF here and I'm talking about it. If I don't agree with you 100%, I'm trying to "drag you down" ?

decided to release Trigon, the personal attacks seem to have gotten a lot worse.

WHAT personal attacks? I think I complimented you on Trigon and when you complained no one was giving you feedback, I offered some honest suggestions that might make it better based on my own experience. You could take or leave it. How that is an "attack" is beyond me.

I don't know what your problem is, all it really is is just a orginal game, and as you have pointed out, it's just not as important than a VPM table.

Important is a relative term. There are bad orignals and bad VPM tables and good originals and good VPM tables. I never called Trigon any of those as I've never played it. I have said it looks really good, especially for an original. I have no idea yet how it plays.

As Kinsey hinted at before, it appears that VPF will turn into a warzone once again soon.

I don't think it will. Things look pretty calm there, IMO except for the occasional whining from several people that AJ won't fix and/or change his server.

I'm pretty sure you will enjoy watching if/when it happens, you do seem to like stuff like that. Me, I hope we don't have to go through this, this could be one hell of a trainwreck.

I have no idea where you get such an idea. I was the one banned from VPF, not the one doing the banishing. That person is the one that probably enjoyed it, not me.

Overall, I tend to think you're misinterpreting events here and going with an emotional reaction rather than addressing what has actually been said because most of your claims of so-called "attacks" have NO basis in fact what-so-ever, unless you call disagreement of opinions an "attack".
 
Actually, you sound like Nicky now. That's my one insult per thread quota. The rest of your stuff, well, you can say what you want, but I also have seen a few of these things myself.

personally, you deserved to be banned from VPF in my opinion, but you didn't deserve to be banned for so long. You are a major major pain in the butt sometimes, and unfortunately, I have to agree with John, we are both simular in a lot of respects, but there is a big difference in personalities. To be fair, there's also a difference in knowledge, and the ability to see the signs based on that knowledge. Some people can change their minds about things, other's won't, no matter what.

Sorry John, I have other things to worry about rather than insult PacDude, no matter how much better I feel after all this time. I guess it's a waste of effort as well, just like it was ages ago with Nicky. Sorry Dude, I didn't mean to insult you by comparing you to nicky, but you are sure sounding like him, and are reacting like him as well. It's not a insult, it's a observation
 
Well, I'm still waiting to hear what this insult and name is I've apparently called you. And I'd be curious to know what you think I deserived to be banned from VPF for. But frankly, I think you just don't like my personality or views on various things.

As for ability to change, etc. I'm sure I view it from the other way around. You have no idea how much I've changed on some issues over the years. I was almost a polar opposite (extremely conservative) on some issues 12 years ago and I voted very differently this past election than I would have back then on things like gay marriage bans and it's because I refuse to flatly accept one viewpoint and ask difficult questions about fundamental beliefs I was raised on that such change is possible.

But frankly I give more credit to John here than anyone as far as changing goes. It's no secret he and I argued on and off a LOT in the past and some of it got quite ugly at times. I'm glad to say he's changed much for the better in terms of being able to listen to other points of view. We may not agree on something, but I think we can readily agree to disagree now. Kudos for that.
 
Originally posted by Shiva:

>You know what, what you say is correct in some things. All people care
>about is the games, and all they care about is that it is free. All they
>want is to take, and the vast majority of them won't lift the slightest
>finger to help out when needed.

What are you talking about here? Lack of contributions in table releases department - or are you talking about money again?

Well, as you know lots of people were banned from VP Forums during the "inqusition". Most of them were table authors and contributing members. Even "supporting" members like Rodgz because they "dared" to post against the "official" opinions of the staff. I got banned too because I publicly stated my opinion.

I don't care about the incident anymore - but it's still not easy to donate money to a site that once treated you like shit & banned and censored you and bunch of your friends.

You said that banning PD was right - even though it divided the whole community for two years and caused total chaos and mayhem. It also caused lots of hate and bitterness which I can still see from both your posts. How about those other 15+ people who got banned? Was that right too, in your opinion?

I think you're unable to think objectively here. You don't like PD and you have every right in the world to feel that way. Actually, what I've seen from your posts you don't seem to get along with ANYONE who even remotely disagrees with your opinions and policies. You get cranky very soon when that happens. To be fair, that applies to PD too.

I'm not saying you're a bad person at all, acting like that is very typical - especially on Internet where people don't have to deal with these things face to face. But people who lose their objectivity make extremely bad moderators.

>There have been a lot of people who came forward to help everyone,

There are still lots of people who always come forward to help everyone. I try to help new users as much as I can. Actually, it would be easier to list people who don't.

>and most of them left because they got fed up of listening to the
>constant complaints, flames and attacks on their character when all
>they wanted to do was help the community.

Who are these people? They left because of some little arguments? I say good riddance to the over-sensitive little pussies.

>Don't worry about me, I will be fine, one way or another. I'm pretty
>sure that you wouldn't lose any sleep over it, though if I was not so
>important anymore, why do you keep talking about me? If my site was
>so dead, and I am such a "hated" person, why do you take every
>oportunity to try and drag me down every chance you get?

Oh please Shiva... This sounds like a sad country song. Nobody hates you. But maybe for once you could take a good look at the mirror and THEN draw a few conclusions.

_You_ have made _very clear_ that it's _your_ site and _you_ run it the way _you_ want and have _your_ own policy about everything. _You_ even call _yourself_ a "Big Blue Boss".

The low traffic in your forums is not a coincidence. Many people don't agree your views and approach. It still doesn't mean they have anything against you as a person.

>Ever since I announced that I had decided to release Trigon, the
>personal attacks seem to have gotten a lot worse.

This claim is just unbelieveable. I thought Trigon was one of the most anticipated original releases. Everyone has been extremely supportive and your Trigon wip thread has got more replies than almost anything else. It looks just great.

>As Kinsey hinted at before, it appears that VPF will turn into a warzone
>once again soon.

As long as there are liberal-minded and sensible people running the site I seriously doubt that will ever happen.
 
Once again, people still can't get their facts straight.

Again, I did not ban PacDude from VPF. AJ Did. Request the fucking logs. Yes, I swore and I don't give a rat's ass at this point.

And as to why Loafer has no business running VPF.. simple, the bastard can't follow the rules that are clearly outlined on the site for policy. Plain and simple.
 
Boy, now that's some kind of heated debating. Nothing at all wrong with that. Not since most of the opinions are marked as opinions. And while they might just be words, some of the stronger language might bother some folks. So would you please try to calm down a bit before posting a reply. Read your message again before posting it, to see if you might want to change the wording.

I'm not suggesting that anyone edit any of their posts. What I am suggesting is that you think about what you are posting in reaction to someone elses comments. And as far as my change in attitude about Pacdude, I simply stopped taking his comments so seriously, and began to find humor in his sometimes bloated approach to posting. I also tend not to take what other folks say about me as gospel, since I'm not as rotten as some say, and surely not as wonderful as others think.

So battle on if you must, but try to be civil and somewhat polite.

John
 
As mentioned before, not everyone has the full story, not even me, it's just what I have been able to piece together. John is right, there's no need to use strong language, especially as I have my 6 year old hanging on to my arm at the moment.

kristian, you are right, it is my policy, and I remember when I stated it, and gave my reasons, I was shouted down for it as well. Haven't changed my mind, and since that's the only restriction I do have, then I guess that's the way it is. Read what I said earlier, my days of taking responsibility for other peoples actions are over. Sorry people seem to think I'm wrong about it, as it seems to be constantly pointed out, but then, they can always do something about it if they want.

Don't ask me where the big blue guy thing came from, I think it was BJ that started that, and John does it all the time. Despite claims otherwise, I do have a sense of humor.
 
Well... I think we are all in agreement that we don't agree :)

I'm going to play some pinball...

Shiva, if you want Trigon to get the full hardcore testing treatment, then check out VPOH and let Sunspot make it a tournament table. Some of the guys that participate in the competition there are master players and will post some great scores in the first couple of days. I have a tough time competing with them on my own tables :)

Here's a link to the Instruction page if you haven't checked them out

http://www.visualpinball.be/index.php?page=2
 
AJ wasn't running VPF then anymore than now and I don't think he could have possibly banned 15+ people (as Kristian puts it). Even KC told me it was the staff discussing the issue, not AJ. You were in control there, Kinsey and at least one of your fellow staff told on you. That makes either this person a liar or you a liar. Considering the bannings stopped shortly after they kicked you out, it doesn't look all that good in your favor, IMO. OTOH, considering neither of you like me today, it's a pretty good tossup, although the one that told me about it and showed me part of an e-mail didn't seem to dislike me at the time he told me that. But really, I couldn't give a crap WHO it was back then because I think most of the staff was guilty of something or the other during that period and they all stood together defending bogus policies and bans that went against their own posted rules.

It wasn't until all but BJ (from the original staff of the time) left the staff did anything change. Actually, right after KC left, a newer staff member came forward to talk about it and we hammered things out so both sides kept face (despite all the crap that went down at VPFF). It wasn't that hard to do when the other side suddenly wasn't out to get me (they might not have banned me directly, but certainly people like KC would have preferred I stayed banned and lots of others were convinced by VPF's side of things I was some kind of troublemaker and would get myself banned again within a few weeks anyway. That never happened because I was telling the truth all that time and kept my word to not rehash things at VPF. It was, in fact, the other side where people like Gottlieb kept trying to provoke me right after I got back that only reinforces the proof it wasn't ME that was the real troublemaker back then. I simply wasn't on the side of the argument of the people in charge. When the old staff left (not me as it were), the problems ceased.

But even if someon believes I was a big part of the problem (I admit I wasn't going to just sit there as they harrassed valid modders without cause and never apologized for it), certainly people like Kristian never did ANYTHING to break rules and get banned there. All they did was voice their opinion in support of my position and/or state my banning was unfair or went too far and for that they found themselves banned. That alone should have been the wakeup call that something didn't smell right on VPF's side and so little shock half the "regulars" (including most of the non-authors) came over to VPFF after that and either went there or both boards. Other long-standing members like MrHide had their posts censored & edited constantly instead of being banned outright.

But as I said, history is history and VPF is not like that today. If VPFF did anything, it proved the community was intelligent enough to not just accept BS coming down from the top as gospel. I doubt anyone that went to VPFF (other than to harass) would have been the type to vote for Bush and accept the status-quo as the truth without at least questioning it first.

I'm sure many other people had a very different view of those events, but many people were only watching from the sidelines and spectators often don't have the perspective as players of the game do. Likewise, I think the old staff still views things very differently, but some of the current staff at least admitted things looked corrupted enough that they were skeptical of both sides' story and hence we both just dropped it (save a few like Gottlieb that can't get enough flaming). I don't feel totally vindicated, but that's beside the point. PINBALL should be the focus and on that we just need to move forward and stop bickering.

But BS about me stealing work or modding tables without permission is STILL BS. Look at the people whining and the quality of their work and then the quality of my work making tables by myself these days and there should be little doubt I don't need to steal anyone's work yet certain people continue to try and paint me as some kind of bad guy that only whines an causes trouble. That's pretty remarkable considering I made over a dozen tables in the past year and a half, all highly rated, came up with a new light system, got the Taito operator menu working and now update the VBS files on top of helping other people and contributing scores of messages to the message forums.
 
sigh...

anyway, I'm tired after the weekend anyway, so I will keep this short. If what pacDude said was true, then he has every right to be angry, if that was the sole and actual reason, and it was false. I would get just as angry if someone accused me of something I didn't do, or questioned my honesty. In fact, I have done so before, in fact right on this thread.

Bob, John has already bugged me constantly about VPOH. I even tried to get in there to see what would be needed, but the site was down or something, so I just added my own stats system. I didn't encrypt it or anything though, you can't stop a person from cheating if he wanted to anyway. I have a delay anyway, I'm waiting for some help at the moment, and it's a big big favor, so I am not rushing it, but I will try again some other time and see if it's workable. It's my script abilities that may cause problems, I am pretty certain the game itself is challenging enough. It would be nice to see if the game actually works the way I wanted it to if a better player actually plays it, my scores are rather embarrassing
 
shiva said:
kristian, you are right, it is my policy, and I remember when I stated it, and gave my reasons, I was shouted down for it as well. Haven't changed my mind, and since that's the only restriction I do have, then I guess that's the way it is. Read what I said earlier, my days of taking responsibility for other peoples actions are over. Sorry people seem to think I'm wrong about it, as it seems to be constantly pointed out, but then, they can always do something about it if they want.

Don't ask me where the big blue guy thing came from, I think it was BJ that started that, and John does it all the time. Despite claims otherwise, I do have a sense of humor.

I have never complained about your policy. Actually, I've never said anything negative about you. I've had private discussions with PD and he has never said anything negative about you, either.

Sometimes I just find _your_ negative comments and attitude very strange. I don't think there's anything wrong with the big picture right now. It's quite the opposite, things haven't looked so good in VP world in a long, long time. So why all the complaining?

Come on, take a Labatt's Blue (or whatever you have in Canada) and chill out. :)
 
Miller Light was the Beer of the Month at Buffalo Wild Wings. $2.50 for 23oz. I drank two and got no buzz at all. Bloody light beer.... :evil:
 
Just because VPF might be better than it was at an earlier time is no reason to sing its praises. In some ways it's nearly as bad as it has ever been. And AJ is the reason, because he still refuses to communicate after basically telling me to either ask my questions or to shut up. The funny thing is that I asked my questions, and AJ did the shutting up. I still feel he is betraying us all by not answering at least some of my questions, especially if any of the donations from VPF help pay for other sites he has. I know personally of one other site and have been told about at least one or two others.

But those bannings were wrong, although a few folks had gotten so irritating that they were almost begging to be banned. Rodgz wanted to get banned so he could be seen as a martyr, and become a Big Man at VPFF. I know this for a fact, because that's what he told me. Now, the bannings weren't carried out fairly, I can tell you that. While Pacdude and I were at war, I posted a wicked flame against SmurfDude, and I received a PM telling me my post had been removed, and the next problem I caused would get me banned.

The next day I posted an "apology" that was nothing more than a second flame against SmurfDude. The same moderator, who was and is a friend, sent me another PM, asked me to stop flaming folks, and then told me how funny they thought my flames had been. Much later, when I thought Kinsey was the cause of all the problems, which I later learned wasn't so, I blasted Kinsey every day for at least a week. While a lot of what I said was true, much of it wasn't her fault, but someone elses fault.

Again, several times I was told to lighten up or I would be banned, but nothing was ever done. I later found out the real facts, which prove that Kinsey was at worse a bull-headed Admin fighting part of her staff for control. This was at a time when AJ had actually given some control to other folks. I never lightened up, and never was banned. Kionsey has always said exactly what she means, and doesn't sugar coat her words, and that is what usually gets people upset with her.

All I know, is that no matter what anyone thinks they know about past events, if you blame everything on Kinsey, or even the bans on Kinsey, you are 98% wrong. I happen to have found out what actually happened, and yes, my source is 100% accurate, and no, I will not reveal my information. But althoiugh Kinsey was the front person at the time, other folks had wrestled power away from her and started doing a lot of nasty things.

At least things weren't boring then, like they can be at times over at VPF. I would like to have a way of filtering the Outlanes, so it doesn't show up when I search for new posts. I don't care anything about wrestling or Gamebox, or any of the other stuff I tend to find there. So yes, if all you are considering are bannings, yes, VPF is better. If you look at the control freak AJ and his lack of wiilingness to communicate or fix the problems with VPF, then no, maybe it isn't as rosey as it seems.

John
 
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