WTF is going on at VPF?

[Shockman]

Have you read any of the new posts?
There is one guy that needs help with getting a joystick to work.
There is another that wants to know the difference between the table release modes.
Both have been very rude to by some of the membership. Both have no cabinets nor expressed any desire for them. I think this is key, because anyone that posts about cabinets expressing a desire for one is treated like family and given a pitch. It's really not about VP anymore is it?

 

[tiltjlp]

I don't read many threads there any more, but yes, it is sad indeed. Even worse in my opinion is that "they" are planning to create fake roms for EM tables, which I have to think is for the benefit of cabinet people. It seems to me that at least 75% of the threads now are about some cabinet version table. It would be nice if there was some way to block sections of the site that are of no interest.

 

[Itchigo]

Not to get into a big thing but... I have noticed a lot of threads relating to cabinets in some form. I couldn't tell you what percentage and it wouldn't mean anything to me anyway. The new threads with the new people (one in particular) have been that way because the one new person has been badgering people in pms as well. I can say that I've been treated well and I have NO interest in cabinets. I've played Paul's cabinet at the last expo and even though I thought the VP game was great- it still looks flat to me. I have my pseudo controller cabinet I built and I'm very happy with that!

What has really surprised me was seeing new members joining and almost immediately talking about building a cabinet.

 

[Shockman]

The cabinets are defiantly a wonderful thing, and understandably desirable, but that's not at all the point. Like it or not, VP is more than the UC build, and with equal exposure, would remain a big deal even for non cabinet users. When they were inflating the percentages of cabinet users, I remarked that I could buy that, if that build was the only one, or those features are the only features to advance, but it would be a sad thing. They claim that the keyboard function would be too hard to put back at this point, and I don't know, some people might believe this. But I could not imagine a single person that has any understanding on routines, verses a routine believing it. It might be hard to have both in the same routine, but they should not be in the same routine, and there is as a matter of fact such routines in past builds already.

Digressing, It's just sad that VPF is treating VP as it is. The people that can actually help with using it without buying his hardware are not welcome, at least some, one for sure I can think of, and lies are being propagated as to VP8 (nudging is worse, even for keyboard users, and there is nothing that can be done about the ball through flipper problem). It's not bad, this niche, but what is bad is they are not open in conversation about it, but in practice, act unaware, though it is most obviously the case.

 

[rascal]

In my opinion, there is all kinds of projects and enhancements going on at VPF. Cabinet builder may be the most popular, I don't know. The saying "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." holds true. The members go there, and they follow their own interests. If the trend is cabinets and cabinet tables, then it is what it is.

There is still a large group of 4:3 followers and authors (me for one). There are FP followers and authors. There are Original followers and authors. It's whatever floats your boat and for the most part everybody exists together without problems. Most authors try to accommodate everybody with multiple releases (4:3, WS, and FS), so where is the problem?

I'm sure I said it before, but I'll say it again. VP9 was a commercial build for a commercial cabinet by design. So it's not surprising that it leans toward the cabinet environment. Developers including Randy worked hard to make it work in a cab and added a boat load of nice features along the way that benefit everybody. We're lucky that it was released to the public with it's source code at all. So don't hate something that was graciously given to us (free of charge).

You got to admit, some of these cab builders do some pretty outstanding work on these boxes. It's like watching "This Old House" for pins! Any pinball fanatic has to appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into these boxes.

I expect a reply "but the nudge sucks" and "but what about the VP8 flippers???", but nothing, those have been issues from the dawn of VP along with a bunch of other issues that we have all learned to live with and/or work around. It the nature of the hobby.

As far as being rude, it's true we do have limits to our patience when dealing with members that won't read, won't answer questions with any details, get impatient when we dont answer fast enough, and want us to do everything for them by remotely. If you want to help this person, let me know, I'll send him your way.

If it the thread that I think you are talking about, he does want to set up a cab like set up with hyperpin and a joystick, and he wants everyone to remote into his PC and do all the work for him. I actually did remote to his PC and fixed his VPM and VP to work with Vista, and quit when he started in on Hyperpin. I couldn't help him with Hyperpin, I never set it up myself. He has since messed up what I did for him, so I gave up. Again, if you think you can help this member, let me know. He will need special care, as we later found out that he was in an accident and suffers brain damage with short term memory lose.

I typed all this, so I might as well hit the submit button.

 

[Shockman]

There is always reasons for communication problems, and it usually is a non understanding on one side, but some of the responses show a non understanding on both sides. Language is another problem that should should pop into mind automatically, as well as age, and probably more. At least they have their reasons, and to me, not knowing it was brain damage, it was clear that it was something or the other.

I could not help him with hyperpin either, which means I would not be involved with in the conversation, but yeah, you could send him my way, I could learn hyperpin and get him an answer, before he could get one from VPF where a number of people use it on a daily basis, it seems.

 

[sleepy]

I thought the speculation regarding 'a death' was totally out of line.
Who is that guy? Does he work there?

Does he work for customer service?

 

[druadic]

Heh, John you KNEW this was coming. We both did. Everyone wonders why I left VP and here's one answer. The first time I left I felt really bad about it and make a few tables when I returned. The second time I made four more; updated Pro Pool, Skykings and even made another flipperless and another table.

It's NOT about VP any longer folks. It's dead, gone and trying to be forgotten. Bar none. VP was made for computers AND cabinets. Everything changed after I left at the beginning and I knew (with help from tiltjlp keeping me updated) what was going to happen. It's a VERY SAD time for VP.

When VP was in it's infancy everyone was kind, courteous, helpful and cared. What a community it was! Alas, all good things come to an end and I mean end. Shiva started the most amazing site ever, VPF was running as smooth as silk (which it does now but a different owner who is also a decent guy) and Randy Davis was in total control of the VP program. No longer.

To be honest, looks like folks got bored with the IBM PC and decided to use "cabinets" to take their hobby a bit further. Nothing wrong with this but throwing the PC users out the window shows why many of the "old timers" simply left due to lack of support, criticism, and disrespect from others. It was a spiral at the beginning which we all know, but it seems to have gotten worse.

Anyway, what the hell do I know? I no longer use VP (even though it's on my Linux desktop) since support is next to nil. Don't get me wrong; there's a TON of folks in the VP community who care about the PC falling "to the wayside" and have TRIED to get things patched up but it's NOT going to happen and it never will again.

I've said my piece. Let the folks enjoy their hobby of "cabinets". If they like it, let them enjoy it. As for being uncourteous, I've not seen this where I'm at so I have no issues with this at all.

"No question is stupid as long as there is an answer to it."

I rest my case. At least I'm making a difference in the PCLinuxOS community and have been enjoying myself for months. I'll never leave and hope to continue to help those at those forums who need help. I'll NEVER treat anyone with rudeness at the forums I'm at. It's a community that cares about one another there. I've even had one of my threads published by the PCLinuxOS Magazine. I'm thrilled that I've been able to help everyone that I can and even had my work published! How cool is that? :)

Missed all ya over here and saw this post. Take care!

druadic

PS: remember Paul has put up with a lot of crap over at VPF! Don't forget that he runs the entire thing and also helps the moderators over there to deal with the offenders! Paul is a GOOD GUY - there are some "newbies" that cause problems and have nothing better to do. Paul puts up with this s--- night and day. Pity the guy; I do.

SHOCKMAN: VP is made with Visual Basic so it can be tailored to work with ANYTHING and made to work practically on ANYTHING. Someone (not me) needs to read the code, learn it a bit and fix some of the issues VP has.

 

[Shockman]

It's C++

Some stuff, though old and outdated is tight, other stuff is incredibly sloppy. My guess is the latter is stuff put in after Randy released it.

Paul might be a good guy, but he is not a fair guy, and he is not truthful either, and that's how I judge a man.

 

[Noah Fentz]

Hi guys! Thanks for the kind words, druadic.

You MUST be joking, though.

This is still a topic around here?!

Everyone was right about you, Phil. You never can let anything go, can you?


@John - The idea was to make EM programming easier using PROC. I see nothing wrong with implementing technology to make recreating easier. We do use VP to recreate EMs, after all! Oh, the blasphemy! Using a PC to recreate an EM! Gimme a break, man.

 

[tiltjlp]

@John - The idea was to make EM programming easier using PROC. I see nothing wrong with implementing technology to make recreating easier. We do use VP to recreate EMs, after all! Oh, the blasphemy! Using a PC to recreate an EM! Gimme a break, man.

Any plans for making fake ROMS for either flipperless or counter top games? I sure hope not, or I'll never make another table. If people are too lazy to learn how to script a VP table, let them watch from the sidelines.

 

[druadic]

I'm going to "bow out" of this while the getting is good.

I've no quarrel with anyone that has to do with VP. I guess I just had enough of it.

Who knows. Anyway, enough is enough. Glad I've moved on and am glad to see there are folks out there that still use VP :)

Anyway, I'm around. Hello Noah, long time no see.

John, I hate to say this but please *lighten up* about this. Personally you are a good friend but being pissed about this topic isn't worth it. I've moved on, ignored VP and went on with other stuff.

I've got other things in my life to worry about and VP is the LEAST of my worries.

Take care folks.

Will
aka druadic

PS: Shocky, I will say this - DO NOT judge a man period. Paul and I had our issues and they have been resolved. There are others at VPF that still hold a grudge against me but I don't care. As Alfred E. Neuman from MAD magazine said: "What me worry?" I've never met Paul personally or know him personally so I have NO RIGHT to judge him. Period. After you get to know someone, THEN make your judgements.

 

[Noah Fentz]

Any plans for making fake ROMS for either flipperless or counter top games? I sure hope not, or I'll never make another table. If people are too lazy to learn how to script a VP table, let them watch from the sidelines.

Actually, John, it would be a great opportunity for members to collectively learn how to make real ROMs for use with any VP table running under PROC, not just EMs. It has nothing to do with laziness.

 

[Shockman]

Everyone was right about you, Phil. You never can let anything go, can you?

If being banned for life from a community I have been so involved in because I told a person that had no power to ban me that I don't care, is what you are talking about, then yes, they were right about me.

It does not matter to you that it was your lies that upset me, or my complaints were base on facts and the others' were based on lies. VPF will always be a lie, because your action of banning me was to cover up those lies and secure them as what you would have others to believe.

 

[druadic]

Shocky,

Here is what I think is the real deal.

We've ALL made mistakes. I have, Paul has, and just about anyone else that has "screwed" up at one time or another.

I admit I made a mistake for "going off" on Paul like I did. It was sheer disrespect and for this I have been sorry ever since. I still feel bad about this. Of course there are others over at VPF who STILL hold a grudge against me (won't name names) but as far as I'm concerned, it's water under the bridge and both Paul and me have cleared up the matter.

I think what Paul is trying to make you understand is that we ALL make mistakes. Live with it. Admit that you're taking this a bit overboard. Everyone feels a certain way and may feel "betrayed". WE ALL DO. In some form or another we do! Of course it could be false and we know not the real nature of others; that's what makes life so mysterious. I wouldn't want it any other way.

Remember, everyone is different. Everyone has issues, problems and BS of their own. Until you realize this and accept folks for who they are and what they do, you'll be stuck in a world of unhappiness and anger. LET IT GO.

I was banned from VPF once. I made a mistake and apologized to Paul. I even said "I'm sorry" to the entire forum even though I didn't have to. Still to some over there that's not enough but I could careless. I've done what I had to and made a mistake. It's over and done with.

I will give you a great piece of advice:

"If you love somebody set them free" is a great statement by Sting which in turn tells us if you feel down and out, unliked, forgotten, feel misled, abandoned or even feel like you've been used let things GO. To be honest, I've never felt so good after I "let go". You'll feel better too once you do so. Until then you'll be quite unhappy. LET IT GO.

PS: Folks, do we know the TRUE intentions of what VP is being used for and what it will be used for? I don't so I refuse to make judgements. I for one am glad I left the world of M$ Winblows months ago. If in doubt, ASK.

 

[tiltjlp]

Actually, John, it would be a great opportunity for members to collectively learn how to make real ROMs for use with any VP table running under PROC, not just EMs. It has nothing to do with laziness.

I have no idea what PROC is, but my tables don't need a ROM to work, so making an artifical one for them almost sounds like a communist plot frpom the 1970s. And yes, that last part is a tongue-in-cheek attempt at humor. But if you claim everyone is interested in learning how to make flipperless and/or counter top games and won't or can't learn without a fake Rom, you're out of touch with reality.

 

[StevOz]

Well as I understand it and I may have it wrong. The whole PROC emulation for EMs could actually be a more accurate emulation as it can be used for exact timing and firing of coil, lamp and switch control taken from the original machine.

In essence it's the same as your VP script, just a set of instructions, although in this instance it can be used with hardware to replace or augment parts in a real pinball machine.

Judging something without having any idea as to what it is, is not such a good idea...

http://www.pinballcontrollers.com/index.php/products/p-roc

Paul might be a good guy, but he is not a fair guy, and he is not truthful either, and that's how I judge a man.

This must be irony? Do you judge yourself by these supposed same standards?

 

[Noah Fentz]

Yeah, that's a really good assessment of the situation.

Using PROC is scripting, in fact. It's just a different method of scripting that allows us to use VPM in originals. Using PROC for EMs would also open doors for more modern rulesets and DMD animation, once again using VPM. I'm sure the benefits are obvious?

As far as this whole Shockman deal and lies, we all know Shocky interprets everything in a really unusual way. He reads into a lot of what everyone says, then is all surprised and feeling betrayed when he finds out his interpretation is in no way the intent of the person. I can't count how many times this has happened.

So ... I'm a liar, because I was misinterpreted as saying one thing, whilst the rest of the world interpreted it the way it was intended. If that makes me a liar, then Shockman isn't delusional at times. You decide.

 

[StevOz]

Well one thing I like about PROC is that it uses python which is platform independent verses visual basic which is microsoft dependent, a direction all of VP should try to head towards.

Now if the VP.exe could be modified to use OpenGL then it could be ported to almost any digital device, well we can dream..

 

[Shockman]

I did not read anything into anything when I got my life time ban. I was talking with someone else and I told them that they could ban me, knowing they did not have the power to do so. Paul acted like he took that as a request to him and said "granted". He knew it was not.

I entered the chat room, which was open at the time to everyone and was talking to quite a few guys, and announced my release of Ice Cold Beer and gave a link to it. I did not break any rules and was banned from the chat for 530,000 minutes. This was not fair. As to the lies, I interpret those literally, meaning as written. If they were not lies or had a possible other interpretation, then I would not have called them lies. If they were isolated events, I would not have responded to them, but they were part of a campaign to upset me. That last sentence is an example of what Paul is talking about, but if you read the list of lies and the time frame they were all said in, you would have to wonder.

There is two sides of everything, unless Paul is involved. I don't know or care how the whole world interprets things like "There is nothing that can be done about the ball through the flipper in VP8" because if they interpret it as there is something, then the whole world can't read. Nothing else I pointed out is any more open for alternate interpretation than this. Go ahead and ban me on the other hand is open for interpretation. If you want to pretend it was said to you, then that's how you interpret it I guess. If you want to interpret 'the bug fixing should be job one' as VP9 is a POS then that is how you interpret that as well. I have my own opinions on what was misinterpreted, and you have yours. At least I sit here honestly believing I did not intentionally misinterpret anything.

 

[Shockman]

PROC sounds great to me. Is Firmware required to create and use roms without hardware interaction (pure VP and VPM)?
Is there any roms released yet that would work on VP/VPM. Do they require to be included in the VPM release as drivers before they can be used with VP?

Creating roms would be more appealing to me than making VP tables. It would also make a great contest to create the best table for a home brew P-ROC rom.

 

[Noah Fentz]

I did not read anything into anything when I got my life time ban. I was talking with someone else and I told them that they could ban me, knowing they did not have the power to do so. Paul acted like he took that as a request to him and said "granted". He knew it was not.

I entered the chat room, which was open at the time to everyone and was talking to quite a few guys, and announced my release of Ice Cold Beer and gave a link to it. I did not break any rules and was banned from the chat for 530,000 minutes. This was not fair. As to the lies, I interpret those literally, meaning as written. If they were not lies or had a possible other interpretation, then I would not have called them lies. If they were isolated events, I would not have responded to them, but they were part of a campaign to upset me. That last sentence is an example of what Paul is talking about, but if you read the list of lies and the time frame they were all said in, you would have to wonder.

There is two sides of everything, unless Paul is involved. I don't know or care how the whole world interprets things like "There is nothing that can be done about the ball through the flipper in VP8" because if they interpret it as there is something, then the whole world can't read. Nothing else I pointed out is any more open for alternate interpretation than this. Go ahead and ban me on the other hand is open for interpretation. If you want to pretend it was said to you, then that's how you interpret it I guess. If you want to interpret 'the bug fixing should be job one' as VP9 is a POS then that is how you interpret that as well. I have my own opinions on what was misinterpreted, and you have yours. At least I sit here honestly believing I did not intentionally misinterpret anything.

When you're banned from the site, you're banned from all services. That includes chat. You banned yourself through your own actions. As I was happy to discuss it with you via over one hundred emails, you continually insulted me and even went so far as to post private emails and info on my family. Way to go, dude. As far as lifetime, nothing is forever. Of course, your perpetual slander is getting you nowhere fast. Later.

 

[Shockman]

Yes. And going months without saying a word gets no further.

I? insulted YOU?

You don't need a hook do you? You just drop your hat on the floor and call it hung.

 

[LeeVanCleef]

You don't need a hook do you? You just drop your hat on the floor and call it hung.

I certainly don't wanna get involved in an argument I know little about, but I'd never heard that line before! I hope I get to use that IRL someday. Allow me to reply for Noah with one of my favorite lines: "Don't tell me how to do my job. I don't come to where you work and slap the dick out of your mouth!"
Or maybe I'll just butt out and play some Joust.

 

[Shockman]

That's one of the biggest problems. people replying for others. "I don't want to get involved, but".
If people could be honest, a lot of the problems of the would be gone, and a whole slew of new ones would emerge.


"I banned myself." exactly what i'm talking about. It's easy to be vague when you have nothing to hang your hat on. Or you could be specific and list things said by me and pretend that they came out of the blue. I'm the one with a 'permaban' and I'm the one to be told to get over it. Good grief man, I gave my opinion when it supported you often and I was not told it was none of my business, to shut up, or to let it go, but when it is something you don't agree with (bug fixes should be job one, the keyboard function should be put back, nudging should not drive the ball like a jousting ostrich, etc.) I amd labeled as dis-content. Well I was just as dis-content against the things you were beating the drum against, but I believe you truly don't understand, or you would not be like this. That suggests narcissism, and there is no defense against that, because there is nothing offensive you could ever see from yourself.