Your top 20 MAME games

[Shockman]

It's like everything else. Getting use to something. A mouse is just as accurate, but a yoke locks the Y axis, and a mouse is hard to get no X when moving up and down. Some of the thrustmaster flight sticks work very well, and I would imagine the real X-wings use a stick and not a yoke. I had a CH yoke that worked good as well. Still does but has an obsolete plug and I have no adapter. A yoke though separates the 2 axis and with a mouse, ball or stick, you have to constantly sync the 2 axis manually.

The arcade yoke is most likely the best, but not an absolute requirement.

 

[kristian]

No way... no other controller can substitute the yoke... there are places where you need to move with extreme precision and speed and mouse simply isn't good enough. For example when you shoot the towers you sometimes have to make an extremely fast move to the left and return back to the center immediately... it "works" with the mouse but there simply isn't enough precision.... and believe me I have played with the analog settings a LOT....!!

I have played almost 3 mil with a mouse... but I have a setting that gives 3 extra shields after each level.

Give me the yoke and I can play forever with the default dips.

Empire Strikes Back (the sequel) is fully playable with a mouse though.

And I agree...it'd be great to have a BZ sequel... but whenever they make those sequels they screw up the original physics..... just consider how awful sequels there are... Dig Dug 2 or Return of the Jedi.... crap..... I'd like to see exactly similar gameplay and modernized vector "wireframe" graphics..... just some new enemies and perhaps some explosions. Graphics don't mean squat.... it's the gameplay that matters.

PS: Initials "MLH" in both Star Wars and Gravitar... they belong to Mike Hally (who designed both games).... also ESB and Gauntlet Legends.... he's a legend himself....!! RDA = Rich Adam... ORR = Owen Rubin (worked on Gravitar and designed the volcano animation for BattleZone).

 

[Itchigo]

Defender was my game (among others). I think my highest was 12 million. I was going to go after the record because I had a way to do it that no one ever found out about- pause. There is a way to pause the commercial game by dropping all 10 guys at once in the lowest part of the planet, at a complete stop. This overloads it, and stops the game in it's tracks. The only way to get out of this is thrust, then you're out. You can stay paused indefinitely.

 

[kristian]

I love Defender and Stargate.... I have a respectable high score on Stargate.... over 100K... but I never really mastered Defender. Hey good idea....perhaps that's my next "high score project"?

They always said it was a difficult game.... and it is...kinda.... it's not frustratingly difficult like Sinistar which is a pain in the arse... the controls of Sinistar are simply stupid (imho).

PS: Check out this guy.... he has a LOT of great arcade machines.... his voice is a bit annoying at first but you get used to it.... and he simply can't play ANYTHING. :D Cool guy though.
www.youtube.com/user/blkdog7/videos?sort=dd&view=0&page=1

Tron & Discs of Tron are great looking cabs.... they're ok games too.

Here's Star Wars arcade machine... unfortunately MAME can never duplicate the real vector screen which looks simply incredible.
Atari Star Wars 1983 Arcade Game Review - Amplifone with ESB kit - PART I - YouTube

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

...whenever they make those sequels they screw up the original physics..... just consider how awful sequels there are... Dig Dug 2 or Return of the Jedi.... crap.....

oh, i liked them both, even though hardly anybody ever saw DD2 in the arcades. and RoftJ was almost more of a clip-film than an actual game, but i still loved it, my being an obedient little padowan of star wars at the time.

indeed, i'd say the original star wars is still probably the finest movie of all time, as much as i'd like to be hoity-toity and choose citizen kane, gunga dihn (sp?), greed, philadephia, and others as better movies.

which is not to say that george lucas hasn't proven himself a total cinematic jackass since then, but that's not the issue here IMO. his ideas were like shafts of pure sun energy in the 70's.

I'd like to see exactly similar gameplay and modernized vector "wireframe" graphics..... just some new enemies and perhaps some explosions. Graphics don't mean squat.... it's the gameplay that matters.

that would be f--------king awesome!!!

and see- that's my basic quandary- i still don't get why these things are so hard to replicate. like, if you've ever tried to play the online multiplayer game "BZflag," did it ever once recreate in your mind the coolness of the original? well it sure didn't for me, anyway!

but i mean, why did we get some reasonable updates to "tron," but stuff like this falls totally flat... like that god-awful film about mario bros, for example.....

 

[kristian]

Not actually a BZ sequel.... but they were about to release this:
Classic Game Room HD - VECTOR TANKS for iPod review - YouTube

But then came this:
http://www.gamepolitics.com/2012/01...g-resemblance-039-battlezone-claims-developer

Personally.... it's tough to say which one of the Star Wars trilogy is the best movie.... they're all great... but I think I like ESB the most... the ending is simply amazing.

Lucas should be jailed for releasing the new trilogy... Episode II is probably the worst movie ever made. But they're all complete and utter garbage.... cast... dialogue... everything. Hayden Christensen was a joke... he had charisma of a damp rag (cue Nigel Farage)...!!

 

[Itchigo]

I think my best on Stargate was a couple of million. It was always said that Stargate was for Defender junkies who thought it was too easy.lol

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Not actually a BZ sequel.... but they were about to release this:
Classic Game Room HD - VECTOR TANKS for iPod review - YouTube

hmm... can't decide if the reviewer guy is a freakish weirdo or just a weirdo freakazoid. in any case, that was probably the best straight BZ take-off i've ever seen. and i guess atari's legal action in january explains why "tanks!" was removed from the android market... dang.

BTW! do you still own your original vectrex, kristian?

 

[StevOz]

I'll bet you can't master Defender Kristian, it's not a rope leant game, every game is different, it takes skill and real reflexes.

Also it has some serious rom based difficulty settings, think you know it, just try it on the next setting.

That said it's just not possible without the original control panel layout.

 

[kristian]

BTW! do you still own your original vectrex, kristian?

No... I really wish I did.... I was dumb enough to give it away long time ago. It was the best console ever... but still... I always thought what a wasted opportunity it was... kinda.

Cinematronics games were good... but just imagine if they had Atari licence...!!

Vectrex had four very good games... Scramble, Mine Storm, Bedlam, Cosmic Chasm and Star Trek/Star Ship. The rest was mediocre at best.

I think Atari could STILL make a lot of money if they released a Vectrex-like console with a real color vector screen... with built-in menu for all released vector games... and original control systems (yoke, BZ two-stick, trackball, 5-button Asteroids layout, etc.)

I would be the first one to buy it.... no matter what the price tag was.

I'm not sure if anyone even makes new vector monitors anymore... it's only a matter of time when people need replacements for their original arcade machines. They're now 30 years old.

 

[Shockman]

The fact is that the arcade cabinet has a yoke, and a PC emulation usually don't. To say it's absolutely not playable is a contradiction, as you use a mouse.

The best controller is the controller that gives the user the most comfortable and useful control. Just as you use keyboard for joystick movement, many people use a mouse. they probably use a high resolution gaming mouse, if not just casual players.Amazon.com: Visiontek XG6 3D Gamer Mouse 3D High Resolution Laser Mouse: Electronics

Same with Defender. A non original lay-out is certainly possible. Even if it does not work as well for all, it is possible. For example, the thrust might work better for some if it is mapped to both the left and right stick. It would be nice to map reverse to both of those as well but it would not work, you would constantly be reversing. If I was to make a game like Defender I would have a do once reverse on the left and right stick and thrust on both as well. Pushing a button to reverse and pushing a button to thrust just makes no sense to me. The fact that it has only a two way stick makes it what it is, but I think a 4 way stick would have made the game better.

The game was taken as too hard, when the mission is a very simple one. Why? You know what I think.

 

[StevOz]

A separate button for reverse is needed, when fighting mutants a quick reverse-fire-thrust-reverse sequence must be mastered with the thrust variable in it's timing and placement in that sequence, this simply would not be possible using a joystick. The same or similar techniques are also used to most effectively fight other enemies such as swarmers and baiters.

 

[Shockman]

Why would it not be possible with a joystick?

I think it would be just as fast if not faster to have a 4 way stick and X for direction instead of a reverse button that require the use of the thumb.

 

[StevOz]

Additionally the reverse and thrust buttons must be used simultaneously on occasions. Also once mastered the reverse button is way faster to flick with the thumb. You actually never press that button it is a flick and way faster then any joystick movement.

I know as I did master Defender in my youth, most often ending my games with the maximum displayable score of 999 975, though I did on a few occasions go on to clock the score 3 times over for a score of 3 999 975 during which, you surpass wave 255 and reset the difficulty level to wave 1, although only up to wave 99 is displayed on screen, after which it displays wave 00 and so on.

There were actually some bootleg Defender games made which did use the 4-way joystick method and these were not very popular as any half way decent player would never play them more then once as they were basically unplayable.

Also the up/down joystick was very short/stubby the reason being is you didn't actually grasp it, you palm controlled or used just your 2 fingers nearest your thumb, having your thumb resting on or very near the reverse button for quick reverse manoeuvres.

 

[Itchigo]

Defender is one of those strange games that I can play falling down drunk and still beat people. I guess when you just get into a rhythm it stays with you.

 

[Shockman]

I know how it plays. like i said the controls can be mastered. But reading that any other control layout would make it unplayable, or even unbeatable for that matter is insane.

It's a stupidly simple game. the only reason it was ever labeled as hard was because the controls were not intuitive and took a lot of getting use to. That was the call when it first came out and nothing has changed. I suspect it was made that way for revenue as a good game is going to get repeat customers until it is beaten, then it's off to something new.

Even the two way stick for altitude and another top shooter stick would have made it so much easier that say scramble, because timing is nowhere near as relevant.

 

[StevOz]

I can't agree at all with your synopsis Shockman, the control panel layout was made exactly that way to suit the gameplay of Defender, nothing else would serve that purpose as well, Eugine Jarvis knew exactly what he was doing and it was all about gameplay.

 

[Shockman]

Gameplay is lining up with an enemy and shooting it. Being that this can be done at any distance, timing is not crucial.

The control scheme defines the gameplay not suits it. Some people just like logical control and a button smasher suits fighters well, but as you can probably gather, I don't like fighters.

For a game to suck me in it takes more than making it work with a controller. It has put me there. If it fails, it can not keep my interest. What I'm saying is that if I was to imagine myself in a space fighter ship, I would not imagine an array of buttons for flight control.

For Defender in Mame and the dual analog stick I use the left stick Up and down as intended. the stick is also a button so pressure on that reverses the ship. Left and right on that same stick apply thrust and button 1 fires. This in no way is unplayable, and works most logical for me. If there was a way to read the press and ignore the held, then reverse would be mapped to the left and right stick as well. For me it is not only logical, but realistic as I would imagine.

I am not arguing that your preferred method is no good, only what I have read by a couple here that any other control layout or devices make some of the mentioned games un-playable. It's an obvious contradiction as we are playing these games without the original controllers.

I have a flight yoke and peddles (CH flight yoke), Three wheel and peddles sets (MS sidewinder, Momo, and G25) A thrustmaster flight stick, X-arcade dual stick, X-arcade trackball, various joypads, and mice. I don't have spinner type wheel or knob, or light guns though. Proper control devices are important in many games but the exact layout is a personal issue.

 

[kristian]

It's not only about a game being "unplayable" or "playable". It's how these games have been designed to play... it's part of their classic gameplay experience.

You can also paint a Ferrari F1 car to British Racing Green and drive it... but it's not the same.

I'd like to see a person who plays 30 Million in Star Wars with the mouse... yes... it's playable but not as playable as it is with yoke. MAME action replay page has pathetic scores... best is 1.6 million.
http://replay.marpirc.net/

Yet, in games like Battlezone and Xevious you see very high scores... it's because their gameplay isn't compromised with an inferior controller. I actually play those games much better on keyboard... the 2-stick original BZ controller was much cooler... but the alternative controller is not a limiting factor.

PS: One thing.... I have never been able to play joystick "left handed"... you know... when the stick was controlled with a left hand and shoot/jump button(s) with right... that doesn't work for me... I simply can't play that way. That's why XBox joypad is completely unplayable for me.... and I'm 100% right handed... it's weird.

I bought 2-player X-arcade just because of that... it has the right joystick so I can program the shoot/jump buttons for my left hand.

Fortunately, Atari cabinets had it both ways... like Xevious.

 

[Shockman]

When running emulation, which is what we are talking about, as the real hardware has the original control, I disagree that it is about how the games were designed to play, as far as controllers is concerned. I think it is all about getting them to play with the hardware you have available.

I know the problems with using a mouse with Star Wars and pointed them out. Resolution only applies to mouse pointers and not gaming mice though.

A BRG Ferrari still has the same chance of winning the race as a red one does though.

I think it's just a little insulting to say that certain games are unplayable just because the highest possible score could not be reached without the original controller.

I hold the high score record on nothing, but the games I like, I'm sure I like as much as the high scorers.

I think it's the response that makes the emulation games playable or not. If you can set up what you have and use it to create the required input with the required feedback then the game is playable. A mouse for example is the best common device to replace a spinner, as wheels are limited in rotation and usually self centering. It's not the same, but it works if set correctly and used along with a pedal is even closer.

For the casual gamer, nostalgic interests, and specific games' fans, these games are mostly set up to use common devices like mice joystick/pad and keyboard.

For the serious gamer there are usually universal alternative devices, like the CH yoke, the Thrustmaster flight stick, gaming mice, as well as other brands an types.

For the purists, they need to collect arcade machines imo, For those between serious and purist, it's possible to attach most of this original control hardware to a PC.

 

[kristian]

Yes... there is no substitute for the real arcade machines... I was thinking about getting a MAME cab but I gave it a second thought and it wouldn't satisfy me anyway. Computer & X-Arcade stick is just as good.

I'd buy Star Wars, BattleZone, Gravitar and Tempest original cabinets in a heartbeat if they were available in Finland.... I bought a house recently and I have lots of space now.... the original controls is one reason but the vector display is the main one.... AAE is awesome but the real, genuine vector display simply can't be substituted.

You Americans are lucky.... you can still buy those machines in reasonable prices. I suspect that might not be the case 10 years from now... original arcade cabinets are definitely collectors' items in the future. Esp. the Atari ones.

PS: You can buy a Star Wars yoke for MAME. The price is quite greasy though....

http://www.westcontrols.com/files/p...SYOKE&cat=C6YO&type=FY&fr=C&fb_source=message

 

[Shockman]

I know what you mean about a MAME cabinet. How to set up the control panel. The cluttered ones that try to put it all on is ugly and confusing. Some are too limited as to the games that would make good use of it.

There is always a option like Doc's, but a lot of work, time, and expense. It is in my opinion the only way to go to have versatile cabinet though. http://www.beersmith.com/mame/

 

[kristian]

Hey... check this out... miniature Star Wars cabinet. Awesome...!!

Star Wars miniature Atari arcade machine! Replay Expo 2011 - YouTube

 

[kristian]

Hey... great MAME-based arcade site that has the ability to redefine keys. Go for the community high scores!!!

http://www.retrouprising.com/

 

[elton]

Bloody hell kristian ... you're still breathing then

How's things?