I have created a wordpad file, with text, and 2 pictures. This text is about the light sequencer, and the pictures are what the light sequencer button looks like, and what the light sequencer looks like in layout mode. Credit, of course goes out to BLACK (AKA Chris leathley) for the light sequencer help file. VP couldn't be complete without you BLACK!
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Zip File for people who don't know how to use the light seq.
- Thread starter v_pin2000
- Start date
Rockinghorse
Pinball Player
I'll try it
Thanks v_pin2000
Anthias and I were looking at the sequencer only last week
Thanks again
CU
RH
Thanks v_pin2000
Anthias and I were looking at the sequencer only last week
Thanks again
CU
RH
PacDude
Pinball Wizard
The light sequencer sucks. It overrides the normal vp light ".state" type reports so you can't access the changes it makes directly. In short, this means you can't use it with walls or reels or any sort of fading light effect. I ran into a script based light sequencer in my many travels through original table world wacky happy funland and it would be ideal for combining with my light system. If I ever get around to making an original table, that would be the route I'd take.
I disagree, the light sequencer is really cool and is for effect only, thus this is why it does not and should not change the actual light.state values.
btw, the full light sequencer documentation is available @shivasite, I should know I uploaded it, it is a full HTML copy of Blacks original page with graphics.
btw, the full light sequencer documentation is available @shivasite, I should know I uploaded it, it is a full HTML copy of Blacks original page with graphics.
Now that PacDude has finished telling everyone just how much better he is than everyone, LightSeq's are primitive, hard to use and useless for anything but normal lights. If you spend the time, and do a lot of experimentation, there are some advantages to LightSeq, especially if you use a lot of lights and don't have the math skills needed to store a lot of lights in memory using variables.
I use lightseqs for reward effects, and it's handy because it will override lights and their exisiting patterns, run specialized patterns to highlight a reward, and then automatically restore the lights back to their previous state. It's a advantage, not a disadvantage, because all lightseq was intended for was lights. Lightseq was just a rough in thing, and was to get major updates and upgrades with VP7, but we all know what happened to that. we were suppose to get simular systems with sound as well if I remember.
The disadvantage with LS is it doesn't work with groups of lights that are top of each other. I can't run PacDudes tables, but I do have the orginal table that used this method (the orginal beta for High Speed, released 4 years ago, though the author is not known) and it just doesn't work very well. You still can do limited effects, but without the shaded light feature.
I use lightseqs for reward effects, and it's handy because it will override lights and their exisiting patterns, run specialized patterns to highlight a reward, and then automatically restore the lights back to their previous state. It's a advantage, not a disadvantage, because all lightseq was intended for was lights. Lightseq was just a rough in thing, and was to get major updates and upgrades with VP7, but we all know what happened to that. we were suppose to get simular systems with sound as well if I remember.
The disadvantage with LS is it doesn't work with groups of lights that are top of each other. I can't run PacDudes tables, but I do have the orginal table that used this method (the orginal beta for High Speed, released 4 years ago, though the author is not known) and it just doesn't work very well. You still can do limited effects, but without the shaded light feature.
tiltjlp
PN co-founder
Thanks Steve. While I doubt if I'll understand it, I've DL all the stuff, just to take a look at it. I've looked at Dude's system and couldn't make heads or tails of it, but what the heck, if I ever get smart about coding, maybe I can use all these gadgets. The more the merrier I figure.
John
John
If I can find it, I will send you the A& table, done well over a year ago, it has that simple example for faded lights. You also can look at the Trigon script as well, it's a very simple example, because I'm a simple programmer. :)
tiltjlp
PN co-founder
I'll look at the Trigon script, but I doubt if it'll mean much to me. About the only thing I've mastered as for as coding is adding scores to targets and bumpers. Anything else on my tables is either borrowed from Will's tables, or they are added at my request by some very nice friends. I'm also a whiz at resizing bumpers. 
John
John
PacDude
Pinball Wizard
Now see Shiva's uncalled for bit about something I didn't say (that I was better than everyone) is why I'm not a big fan of Shiva or Shivasite. I see nothing up there that insinuates that at all. I'm simply giving my opinion on why I don't like Black's light sequencer. Shiva then turns around and agrees it won't work with overlapped lights. I didn't make the script-based light sequencer I found and mentioned (I'd have to look it up again to see) and if someone were to use it, they wouldn't have to do any more math than using Black's light sequencer. For me, it's just a question of usefulness and/or flexibility.
My point was/is that the problem with Black's light sequencer is that you can't do certain things with it. You can't use wall lights. You can't use reel lights. You can't use any kind of overlapping light (whether used for fading or something else). That's because you have no access to the output of the light sequencer and it doesn't change the .state effects (again no output data). It also means that you can't independently change a light state used in th sequencer while the sequencer is running (either directly or indirectly), which also limits its usefulness, IMO. That's because it totally overrides whatever light.state values you might assign while the sequencer is active.
Whether someone likes or even understands my fading light system is beside the point. It's "just for effect" also (as are any lights) but won't work PERIOD with Black's light sequencer (nothing but plain vp lights will work with it because it has no input/output data at all). I could make it work with a script-based light sequencer like the one I found in some original tables and that's why I prefer a script-based solution to Black's light sequencer. Plus it's pretty obvious I prefer wall and reel lights these days (which you can make look like ANYTHING you like) as opposed to VP's flat boring lights and those just won't work with Black's sequencer for the said reasons. I could adapt that script sequencer to output to my control array (just like VPM does automatically) and then it would then work with VP lights, wall lights, reel lights (all fading or not) and overlapping light effects with NO issues (just like a VPM table).
Now that's factual information about the limitations of Black's light sequencer. How that makes me "better" or has anything to do with that, I have no idea. I wish Black's sequencer DID work differently. In fact, I tried to set it up in my light tutorial table and that's when I discovered that it wouldn't interact with anything period (and I tried numerous ways to get it to interact; no dice).
My point was/is that the problem with Black's light sequencer is that you can't do certain things with it. You can't use wall lights. You can't use reel lights. You can't use any kind of overlapping light (whether used for fading or something else). That's because you have no access to the output of the light sequencer and it doesn't change the .state effects (again no output data). It also means that you can't independently change a light state used in th sequencer while the sequencer is running (either directly or indirectly), which also limits its usefulness, IMO. That's because it totally overrides whatever light.state values you might assign while the sequencer is active.
Whether someone likes or even understands my fading light system is beside the point. It's "just for effect" also (as are any lights) but won't work PERIOD with Black's light sequencer (nothing but plain vp lights will work with it because it has no input/output data at all). I could make it work with a script-based light sequencer like the one I found in some original tables and that's why I prefer a script-based solution to Black's light sequencer. Plus it's pretty obvious I prefer wall and reel lights these days (which you can make look like ANYTHING you like) as opposed to VP's flat boring lights and those just won't work with Black's sequencer for the said reasons. I could adapt that script sequencer to output to my control array (just like VPM does automatically) and then it would then work with VP lights, wall lights, reel lights (all fading or not) and overlapping light effects with NO issues (just like a VPM table).
Now that's factual information about the limitations of Black's light sequencer. How that makes me "better" or has anything to do with that, I have no idea. I wish Black's sequencer DID work differently. In fact, I tried to set it up in my light tutorial table and that's when I discovered that it wouldn't interact with anything period (and I tried numerous ways to get it to interact; no dice).
tiltjlp
PN co-founder
Now Dude, your last post was a lot friendlier than the one before where you simply said that the other light sequencer "sucked". It's always best to explain your opinions, if for no other reason than avoiding looking dumb, not that you did, but possibly I do with this post. No big deal, it won't be a first. Opinions don't mean much if you change them as often as you change your shirt.
John
John
PacDude
Pinball Wizard
I said it sucked, but then I gave the reasons why i think it sucks (not the effects, but the unfriendly nature of Black's light sequencer in that it doesn't even follow VP's own light.state system, let alone offer usable output to drive wall or reel lights). But in any case, the only person that should take offense at saying it sucks is Black. Hey, let him come defend why he didn't have it interact with VP's lights states properly if he finds it offensive. But I don't really know what Shiva's problem is (although I don't really care unless it interferes with his ability to moderate in an unbiased fashion, but then that comes back to the whole "who" should run the main VP forums issue). I've tried to be nothing but helpful in his Trigon WIP threads at Shivasite and yet this is the 2nd time I've gotten this PD thinks he's better than everyone comment. I know my tables are better than a lot of tables out there, but that doesn't make "me" better than anyone. A person's work is not the person. Plus I haven't made any original tables to compete with Trigon or whatever.
Maybe it was my Sorcerer table he didn't like me making (thinking he would compete with his?) I let the people pick the one they like to play better. Besides, I made it for me, not to replace his table. But gaging by Greywolf's initial reaction when he saw me making a new Firepower, I would have to suspect that any VPM author might take issue if/when I make a table for a game they've already made a table for if they think mine came out better (or think others might think so). That is beyond my control unless I want to limit the table I make to games not yet made (that would be a pretty short list plus for games like Monopoly several are being made at once). In short, you can't really be a VP author and please everyone.
Maybe it was my Sorcerer table he didn't like me making (thinking he would compete with his?) I let the people pick the one they like to play better. Besides, I made it for me, not to replace his table. But gaging by Greywolf's initial reaction when he saw me making a new Firepower, I would have to suspect that any VPM author might take issue if/when I make a table for a game they've already made a table for if they think mine came out better (or think others might think so). That is beyond my control unless I want to limit the table I make to games not yet made (that would be a pretty short list plus for games like Monopoly several are being made at once). In short, you can't really be a VP author and please everyone.
tiltjlp
PN co-founder
Yeah, I went back and read that first post of yours, and you do mention why you don't like Black's system. I guess I was thrown off stride by your "out of character short post " But I do agree with what you said about other authors making the same tables you have, I can see where some folks might have a problem.
While it's not the same sort of thing, Starman modified both of my Bronco Buster tables, flippered and flipperless, and when he sent me his versions for my opinion, I was 1, surprised, 2, flattered, and 3, told him to release them. He had changed the graphics 100 %, and even altered a few rules, so that they are actually different tables.
I still prefer my originals, partly because they are mine, but also because his graphics are a lot flashier than I like, and with all the changes, well, it really isn't that much like the ones I made. What I find humorous is all the energy wasted fussing about opinions of other folks, when there's little or no chance of swaying their ideas.
John
" But I do agree with what you said about other authors making the same tables you have, I can see where some folks might have a problem.While it's not the same sort of thing, Starman modified both of my Bronco Buster tables, flippered and flipperless, and when he sent me his versions for my opinion, I was 1, surprised, 2, flattered, and 3, told him to release them. He had changed the graphics 100 %, and even altered a few rules, so that they are actually different tables.
I still prefer my originals, partly because they are mine, but also because his graphics are a lot flashier than I like, and with all the changes, well, it really isn't that much like the ones I made. What I find humorous is all the energy wasted fussing about opinions of other folks, when there's little or no chance of swaying their ideas.
John
PacDude
Pinball Wizard
I had a public speaking professor (doctor actually) in college that wanted me to join the University's debate team after she saw me debate. My side was to argue against continuing funding for the National Endowment of the Arts. Well, I dug up all kinds of absolute sick garbage on that organization (it wasn't hard) and me and my partner were well prepared for any and all arguments the other side made. They looked unprofessional, unprepared and couldn't make any good counterarguments. The teacher didn't ask anyone else in that class to join her debate team for the following year (so I figure I did a good job), yet I declined because of the results of that debate with the audience. We had 1 person on each side move over to the other side (i.e. change their mind from their initial opinion) from the entire audience so the net result was a big fat ZERO for net changing of minds in that debate, despite the overwhelming crap I dug up.
It reminds me of the recent elections. Most people already made up their minds long before the debates and NOTHING either side said was going to make ONE bit of a difference to those people. I tried arguing with Nicky at VPFF on various things including the war in Iraq and it soon became apparent he was listening to a word I said, but was instead picking through my words to try and find ways to pervert what I said and turn it against me. He was following debate form, but had NO interest in actually LISTENING to what I had to say or would even CONSIDER it for a moment. His mind was made up and NOTHING was going to change it. Likewise, nothing he said was going to change my mind, particularly when he insulted me every other sentence for the sake of entertaining the audience.
In short, its was pointless.
So, it should be no big surprise that people that have no interst in my light system or using walls, reels, overlapping objects, etc. are going to care about my arguments against Black's light sequencer if they've already made up their mind they like it as-is and don't want to take lights any further than that.
Thus, my opinion is just my opinion for the reasons given and the direction I plan to take if/when I get around to making an original some day.
It reminds me of the recent elections. Most people already made up their minds long before the debates and NOTHING either side said was going to make ONE bit of a difference to those people. I tried arguing with Nicky at VPFF on various things including the war in Iraq and it soon became apparent he was listening to a word I said, but was instead picking through my words to try and find ways to pervert what I said and turn it against me. He was following debate form, but had NO interest in actually LISTENING to what I had to say or would even CONSIDER it for a moment. His mind was made up and NOTHING was going to change it. Likewise, nothing he said was going to change my mind, particularly when he insulted me every other sentence for the sake of entertaining the audience.
In short, its was pointless.
So, it should be no big surprise that people that have no interst in my light system or using walls, reels, overlapping objects, etc. are going to care about my arguments against Black's light sequencer if they've already made up their mind they like it as-is and don't want to take lights any further than that.
Thus, my opinion is just my opinion for the reasons given and the direction I plan to take if/when I get around to making an original some day.
Actually, just run a search of VPF, and you know what I am talking about. The fact that you constantly mention the faded light system just about every time you have a chance is proof enough. Okay, it's a nice idea, but it's not the be all end all, it's just another tool in a devs arsenal, and it's not something that hasn't been released before in some other way. It's very nice, your proud of it, you get a lot of accolades for it, but enough already
As to my comments, considering what you have called me over the years, and for a change, I got fed up with it and actually said something, why are you complaining when I am pointing out a fact that is plain for anyone to see if they know how to read. To be blunt, if you ever said the things to my face what you have said about me in various forums, I would have flatten you, which would have been a first for me, as I am not in the slighest bit violent, and because of my health, you proberly out weigh me by 75-100 pounds. Don't pretend to be so hard done by, the only thing it proves that you can't take even a fraction of what you have been dishing out for the years.
BTW, I don't care about Sorcerer, I never said one negative thing about it, and I never will. It looks good, and I can't comment anyway, because it's unplayable on my computer. I don't think my version of Sorcerer has anything to do with it, I do find it interesting though that you were so hot and bothered to do other games, and then suddenly, when I announced I was doing Trigon, and I was gonna use the Sorcerer soundset, then you decided to do Sorcerer. Considering all of the extra time you took to make your version of Sorcerer as good as possible, when ever I do get a decent computer that could play it, I will make sure I play it, it is one of my favorite games after all and enjoy your version just as well. But, that game of mine is more important to me then what anyone can imagine, that game kept me going for 3 years, I am very protective of it, and I will continue to do so. It may be just a game to everyone else, but it was a very important part of my life.
As to the light sequencer, I guess I am not allowed to agree with you on some points. Me bad...
The thing is, I'm a orginal table author. That means that I don't have the lights already worked out by someone else, and all I have to do is hook up the proper switches. I have to work it all out myself, so I have done a lot of work and experimentation. The LS is a major pain, but you can't really complain about a system that was only meant to be used with lights not working with other things like walls. It does what it does, and it works quite well if you understand it's limations, and are willing to work at it a bit. It has problems, but like decals, drop walls etc, sometimes you can get around them.
As to my comments, considering what you have called me over the years, and for a change, I got fed up with it and actually said something, why are you complaining when I am pointing out a fact that is plain for anyone to see if they know how to read. To be blunt, if you ever said the things to my face what you have said about me in various forums, I would have flatten you, which would have been a first for me, as I am not in the slighest bit violent, and because of my health, you proberly out weigh me by 75-100 pounds. Don't pretend to be so hard done by, the only thing it proves that you can't take even a fraction of what you have been dishing out for the years.
BTW, I don't care about Sorcerer, I never said one negative thing about it, and I never will. It looks good, and I can't comment anyway, because it's unplayable on my computer. I don't think my version of Sorcerer has anything to do with it, I do find it interesting though that you were so hot and bothered to do other games, and then suddenly, when I announced I was doing Trigon, and I was gonna use the Sorcerer soundset, then you decided to do Sorcerer. Considering all of the extra time you took to make your version of Sorcerer as good as possible, when ever I do get a decent computer that could play it, I will make sure I play it, it is one of my favorite games after all and enjoy your version just as well. But, that game of mine is more important to me then what anyone can imagine, that game kept me going for 3 years, I am very protective of it, and I will continue to do so. It may be just a game to everyone else, but it was a very important part of my life.
As to the light sequencer, I guess I am not allowed to agree with you on some points. Me bad...
The thing is, I'm a orginal table author. That means that I don't have the lights already worked out by someone else, and all I have to do is hook up the proper switches. I have to work it all out myself, so I have done a lot of work and experimentation. The LS is a major pain, but you can't really complain about a system that was only meant to be used with lights not working with other things like walls. It does what it does, and it works quite well if you understand it's limations, and are willing to work at it a bit. It has problems, but like decals, drop walls etc, sometimes you can get around them.
PacDude
Pinball Wizard
shiva said:
Are we supposed to be psychic now too? Search for what, exactly? Any thread that I reply in? Threads on light systems?
So I take it that you don't mention ShivaEngine or the like "every chance you get", then? I'm just trying to encourage some people to take a look at it before dismissing it or rewriting the wheel (e.g. when Kurt's fading lights didn't appear to be functioning, I suggested he might take a look to simplify things in the future). I know from Kristian that it's just a matter of explaining the system in some cases (people tend to resist learning new things). But this "enough already" smacks of something else, IMO.
There's that totally abstract reference to some names I've supposedly called you over the years. I'm waiting to hear what even ONE of these names is, Shiva. I don't recall calling you anything, so you're going to have to point something out if you expect me to believe I've insulted you.
Gee, I must have said something truly HORRIBLE to turn a non-violent man like yourself into such a RAGE. I'd REALLY like to know what it is I've said to make you want to flatten me, Shiva. Please, do tell. Point it out. If I've said something so awful, I'll gladly apologize for it.
You can't have "proof" with abstract accusations about something I supposedly said. Let's hear/see it.
Until you just saying that just now, I don't recall you ever stating that you were going to use the Sorcerer sound set in Trigon. If you did, I never noticed. And if you look back to the original Sorcerer WIP thread at VPF, it's clear I never even tried your version of Sorcerer until after I finished 1.0 of my own table. The only one I saw and played was the original release by Krellan/Joxer and it was in pretty incomplete looking shape and so THAT was the version I based my decision to make a new table on, seeing that it seemed like an interesting table design along with being one of only 3 System9 tables. Once Wod offered me a high resolution flyer scan and playfield overlay and Nitrodude offered to scan plastics, I decided to go forward with it, all before ever even looking at a picture of your version. So ANY business you think about Trigon (of all things) is purely a coincidence. I don't see any real resemblance to Sorcerer there (it reminds me more of Firepower's layout than Sorcerer).
And as I recall you asked for and complained about a lack of feedback on it and so I provided some areas that I thought might be improved. You didn't sound like you minded the feedback at the time, but clearly you took feedback as an insult rather than an offer of advice I learned on my own VP path of adventure. Nobody was trying ot make you do anything. As I recall, most of my suggestions had to do with lighting and scoring. Then there was that discussion on pop bumpers and how to make them drop DOWN instead of UP, which I thought would be helpful to you. Maybe I should have just ignored the whole WIP thread? But then you complained about people doing that too.
Did I say that? No, I just gave my own opinion on the system. You have no interest in using fading lights, wall lights or reel scoring in Trigon, so clearly the downsides of the light sequencer don't apply to you.
That statement shows a complete lack of understanding of how my light system works or what it's about. It's not 50K long because all it does is hook up lights to switches. It's about creating more realistic LOOKING lights. How it's CONTROLLED is irrelevant (my tutorial table is an original table example to show that it does indeed work with originals, but can't work with Black's light sequencer for the reasons discussed in this thread. A script based sequencer would work and there is one out there publicly available).
I can complain about Black's light sequencer because it violates VP's own light rules and controls. Those complaints have NOTHING to do with the effects themselves. Those are nice, but not interactive on a script level. The script-based sequencer I've looked at has the same types of wipes, etc., but it controls it via arrays and those could be transformed to control any kind of light (wall, reel, etc.). That is one ASPECT of the issue and the only one I'm talking about when I say I think Blacks' sequencer sucks. Obviously, no one is making you agree with that assessment.
Well I can't complain about the light seqencer, it works, is easy to use, is in VP now and forever and does not cost 100+ fps. I used it extensively and see it as a great addition and if you checked the documentation you would have known it's limitations.
Jeez Pacdude, just about everytime I see you post, you mention the faded lights. Sure I mention shivaEngine, but it's mostly with threads from people looking for help on certain things, and shivaEngine is a tutorial for crying out loud.
As to the rest of this, all I did was point out the timing. Yes, you suggested some improvements, and by some odd twist of fate, it was to use a faded light system as well, and I appreicated the comments, because they were honestly given without a personal color attached to them. When you also posted the same thing at VPF when I released that bumper example, that had color to it. And you were making comments about sorcerer, again that had more color to it, and then you didn't even correct the mistake with the different tables mixup. Considering there's only one real place to download, how could you miss the 2 seperate versions? I even made sure it was named SE, and told everyone about it, to prevent confusion.
Again, about the game. Not quite right there, I said I wasn't gonna use it because I didn't want to have to rewrite the script all over again to add those features. I never said I wasn't interested. I do use a faded light system, but in a different way. I based it on High Speed, the orginal beta from 4 years ago. I always liked it, it's a great effect, and I added it in a couple years back. I even released it over a year ago as part of the A7 test table.
As to the rest of this, all I did was point out the timing. Yes, you suggested some improvements, and by some odd twist of fate, it was to use a faded light system as well, and I appreicated the comments, because they were honestly given without a personal color attached to them. When you also posted the same thing at VPF when I released that bumper example, that had color to it. And you were making comments about sorcerer, again that had more color to it, and then you didn't even correct the mistake with the different tables mixup. Considering there's only one real place to download, how could you miss the 2 seperate versions? I even made sure it was named SE, and told everyone about it, to prevent confusion.
Again, about the game. Not quite right there, I said I wasn't gonna use it because I didn't want to have to rewrite the script all over again to add those features. I never said I wasn't interested. I do use a faded light system, but in a different way. I based it on High Speed, the orginal beta from 4 years ago. I always liked it, it's a great effect, and I added it in a couple years back. I even released it over a year ago as part of the A7 test table.