920

[Shockman]

No you didn't. You asked Bonus2X to remove Shockman's mods. I happen to know that Bonus2X is not going to take such action. As for me, Remove them from my own web space? I think not. You want to talk to me there at VPF you have got to talk to the Shockman account. Then perhaps we can come to an agreement. I'm not going to let you have it both ways. It's really very clear. I will never remove my mods which are allowed by the very releases in writing, until and unless my work is respected. VPF is probably the only site, at least the only one I know of that is hosting the core.vbs file with my contribution removed.

shiva, that quote sounds like something a pig might say.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

~walt kelly

 

[Shockman]

George Orwell

 

[bob]

Shocky, I thought I'd give you a little free advice and then I'll get off the soapbox.... You now have an account at VPF and we KNOW it's Shockman. What more do you want? Count your blessings and forget about the mods, forget about the ball thru the flipper, forget about the vbs crap and just enjoy what you've been praying for, for the last year.

If you don't let this stuff go, PD will cause you to go nuts and then your account will go *poof* again. If there's one thing you should have learned in this past year is that no one gives a shit.... No one cares whether you're there or not. Trust me, it ain't worth it and this may be your last chance.... It's certainly that second chance that you've been pleading for.

Let it goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo....

 

[shiva]

Very good shock. Nice to see some people have had a proper education. Of course now we come to the question, who are the pigs here? :)

 

[JonPurpleHaze]

I believe Pacdude doesn't want Shockman messing with his tables and agree with nic that PD's new wishes should be respected. To clear some possible misconceptions, Pinball Nirvana hasn't hosted mods.

Pacdude's new site is fine, he has had that space for a long time and recently updated it, he did "Pull a KC" as far as removing stuff, but it just doesn't matter.

A smiley added per bob's request..

 

[StevOz]

You know your own self delusions Phil, seem to know no limits, we did try to let bygones be just that, seems you would rather just be banned, Bonus2X or whatever you choose for your next alter ego, sad really, very sad...

 

[elton]

I'm fashionably late once again ..... even though I subscribe to this thread I don't get any notifications!!!!

But, and I have already expressed this sentiment elsewhere (must be VPF) - Bob (and therefore Shockman) is correct on this one. The tables are clearly labeled free to mod and that's whats happened. You can't say in retrospect that 'someone' is not allowed to mod them - its too fracking late! Permission was granted, the tables were modded - period.

Even if newer (or the same version) tables are ported for download with a different flyer stating NO MODS ALLOWED it will not alter the fact that the modded tables are based on the initial instruction/permission that allowed modifications to take place.

It matters not what you think of the individual concerned, and regardless of whatever user ID he now uses - permission for the tables modded was given and gratefully received.

The truth is PD made a mistake with his table wording and no matter how much respect everyone may (or may not) have for him in this instance he is simply wrong. However annoying, disturbing, upsetting this may be to the author Equally this applies to all those that support the PD view.

 

[StevOz]

Gee they change the speed limit here all the time, wonder if I can just use the old speed limit?

 

[Shockman]

'Oz. you can go the speed posted at the time. You dont have to call the DMV to confirm it. You can assume if it's written that it is enforced. If they change it, they will enforce the new speed, but they won't even ask if you were going the new speed before it was enforced. Pretty cool of them, isn't it?

'Oz banned me. He says it is because I want the issue of the bttf and the mods discussed with the Shockman account. I told him I would discuss it with the Bonus2X account though, but I would prefer The Shockman account. I don't feel I did anything wrong, let alone something to be banned again over, especially when I took the cat out of the bag myself, in the hope and with trust that I would get the chance that both of the staffers said they wanted to give me, just this week. 'Oz pointed out that everyone deserves another chance, and that made me feel better about him than I have in a while. I was helpful to a couple of new guys, contributed to a redundant poll, Courteous to an aspiring table builder, and offered to help, and complained about what happened to some of the work I contributed to the community.

One thing is very clear. There are two sides to the issue of my mods being unauthorized, and though Steve's may be valid, there is no reason for it to be unilateral, given his position. This should be discussed and both sides heard. It is the same with the issue of PacDude taking out work that I, not he contributed.

Steve, please give me my membership back. I will discuss anything you want, I will not just dump my beliefs and give up my rights, but that is OK, isn't it, as long as we can discuss them if you want? I know we disagree about whether someone writing free to mod means free to mod, and whether they should be able to change their mind if it actually happens, but isn't is OK to disagree? or are you just right and I am just wrong? Please, don't do this. You know i want my membership, you know Peter said he wanted me to have it, You know AJ does, you know you said I deserved another chance. Please give it.

Thanks elton, helpful, and bold.

Thanks Bob, I think.

shiva, isn't it obvious?

Jon, hey, tried rFactor yet? I think it is a good thing that you gave PacDude space for his uploads. Slots are rare at VPF. I hope we can go on disagreeing about the value of written language civilly as well. I want you to understand something else though, and that is that I don't want PacDude messing with my work either.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Very good shock. Nice to see some people have had a proper education. Of course now we come to the question, who are the pigs here? :)

ah, you know... walt kelly recycled that quote in his political cartoons and that's what must have fooled me.

it's been over 25 years since i read "animal farm" (i assume that's the source).

ironically, it just turned "the year of the pig".

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

And here is the oft quoted 'Mods are allowed

-Mods are allowed (as usual with my releases), but please label your tables as such, both in this table info section and the table and zip file names and leave my credits intact. I'd prefer you keep your own RevHistory file with a different name, but including the previous entries prior to your mod.

From this you can mod if you keep the original credits
The ShockMod of PacDudes Centaur has had PacDudes name removed from the table information and from the table script, nor is any reference made in the revion history that this version is a modified version of PacDudes original work

 

[PacDude]

TMFP is correct.

As Shockman has clearly violated the terms of the modding agreement (by removing said credits and not including modding information), he is in violation of the modding contract (since some like Elton here seem to believe that what it said verbatim is all that matters and not intent) and all modding permissions have thus been nullified. Thus, Shockman is UNAUTHORIZED and has no modding rights to my tables here or at VPF.

This is in addition to the aforementioned arguments (and as you can see from Blackout, the permissions have been changed due to Shockman's clear abuse (namely blackmail) ).

 

[StevOz]

As of this new evidence all links to Shockmans unauthorised mods have or will be removed.

 

[elton]

.... (since some like Elton here seem to believe that what it said verbatim is all that matters and not intent) ... .

Sorry, but the 'intent' of a message is a particularly subjective area and means nothing.

So we have to agree to disagree. Whether the other points made are true I don't know because I've not seen any of the modded tables, but I stick with my original points regardless of how unpopular that makes me.

Anyway enough said.

 

[shiva]

"The person who claims to know the Ending of Things
Before they have [truly] begun is either
Very Wise or very Foolish...

In either case they must be very Sad...
For they have put a knife
Into the Heart of Wonder."

 

[shiva]

"The person who claims to know the Ending of Things
Before they have [truly] begun is either
Very Wise or very Foolish...

In either case they must be very Sad...
For they have put a knife
Into the Heart of Wonder."

 

[shiva]

"The person who claims to know the Ending of Things
Before they have [truly] begun is either
Very Wise or very Foolish...

In either case they must be very Sad...
For they have put a knife
Into the Heart of Wonder."

 

[elton]

Way to go Shiva - a triple post!

 

[Shockman]

The early mods had PacDudes name everywhere it was, plus even in the file name. This don't change the fact that free to mod means free to mod. The other parts, which this in one said please, and I suggest, and are mearly suggestions.

But, If it is now OK to change your mind on a verbal contract. Then I want all tables that have the flipper fix taken off PN and VPM until the time when they are available, in the same form they were (no extra work) to everyone. That means back in the official core.vbs file.

Until that time you can save yourself the extra work only on the few I have set up so you will not have to guess.


At this point I don't understand you guys. PacDude is messing with MY work and I am messing with his. You host PacDudes work, with my work in it. At this point you have to prove that you think you are really doing the right thing.
Ban me if you think you would be doing the communtiy some good, but I will post links the these for as long as VPF hosts the hacked .vbs file that has the flipper fix taken out.


I started taking his name off the files and posted that here. The tables are posted as free to mod please and suggestions, from someone that took my work out of the community is no more than that suggestions. I said I would take them down, delete them in a PM to Steve just last night, if he would just tell PacDude to replace my work in the file or take the file down. But now you are saying that I have no right to ask that my work be put up? This was everything you wanted , less the confrontation with PacDude.

edited: Links removed

 

[shiva]

Way to go Shiva - a triple post!

3 posts, one for each person. :)

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

I am sorry shiva, Screenshots all look the same to me
there are about 4-5 different vessions of Star Trek (1978 Bally) avaliable, to me they all look the same
But
Looking at the tables in the editor, something that I cannot do with a global product, and I don't have your version either, and the various 'tricks' that an author uses, dropwalls, triggers, etc, etc, make it easy to spot modded work

 

[bob]

The only mod I have tried of Shockie's is the Sorcerer he sent me and all credits are intact. All Shocky has to do is put the credits back in said mods then to make them authorised.

My problem here is with you guys allowing people to change their minds about giving permission and then taking it back. All of my tables are based on using other people's work with granted permission. I use templates by Bendigo, shiva, chris and tables by Eala, Ale and Robair as templates, all with permission. I am not about to remove my work if one of these guys change their minds. I spent 100's of hours on each table and I try to give credit to them, but you're trying to make a rule that they can change their mind and I'd have to take down my work, to this I say your frackin' crazy.

You are just grabbing at straws now to make your decision appear legitimate, like I said earlier, you have 100's of reasons to ban Shocky, don''t change the frackin rules to do it. Permission to mod means permission to mod.... That's all I'm arguing about.

I tried to read animal farm about 20 years ago and couldn't get through it even though it's a thin book. I also sold 2 hardback 1st editions with dust covers on eBay. I think they brought 20+dollars for each one. :)

 

[Phoenixx]

Sorry, but the 'intent' of a message is a particularly subjective area and means nothing.
I stick with my original points regardless of how unpopular that makes me.

Anyway enough said.

Of course i can only agree. If i say 'free to mod' then i must not ask for what reasons it was done afterwards. Because thats irrelevant. Free to mod means free to mod period. Period. There is absolutely nothing missunderstandable about this statement. It translates unmissunderstandably into 'everyone can mod it at any time', and not into '...but only if i like the reason'. So to come along later saying "but i dont like the reason why it was modded" is BS. Its too late then,...


Asides from that i can only shake my head at this whole 'authorized/unauthorized modding' shit anyway. To be honest, it makes me sick by now! After all, nobody had any rights on that stuff to begin with!!! It really seems like some are missing to realize the simple fact that the material is not theirs anyway and that they took it illegally for their own purposes as well although the original authors have explicitely copyrighted it and thereby explicitely forbidden every unauthorized use of it!

In other words, they didnt give shit for the actual owners rights either, although these people do actually really HAVE some rights on that stuff. And yet there is an endless whining-fest whenever someone has the NERVE to do the same as they are doing all the time themselves, namely taking something that isnt theirs whatsoever and using it to make and publish their own thing. I mean 90% of all these unauthorizedly copied tables do not even include ONE BIT of credits to the original authors. Nobody gives a flippin shit for the rights, whishes, copyrights, credits of the ACTUAL authors of that stuff, but at the same time whenever someone takes their entirely illegaly done work the big drama immediately begins, and the 'wheres my credit' and 'its my work' (whoms work?) and 'you had no right' bullshit doesnt seem to stop anymore.

(This all inevitably reminds me of 'The United States'. First they took (to avoid saying STEAL) the land from the Indians without any scruples whtasoever, forced the Indians into the stoney deserts and kept the good land for themselves to exploit it, (gold, silver, oil, etc.), but now everyone who has the NERVE to lay their hands on 'their' land gets an atomic bomb delivered to their door. To take it illegally by using even the most fucked up and disgusting means possible was perfectly O.K., but everyone who would try the same deserves to die. (Of course.))

I mean how can somebodies mind really be THAT screwed up? How can someone seriously have SUCH an attitude? If i go into the store and steal a bottle of wine, do i have the right to whine if somebody else steals it from me? Do i have the right to demand that somebody protects me and my deed and expect the one who stole it from me to get punished? When i have stolen the fuckin bottle myself? I really dont think so, so some people should really get a clue what is actually going on here and what they are actually doing before they expect 'rights' (and protection thereof) for things that they took entirely illegally without giving shit for the rights of those who actually own that stuff (and explicitely copyrighted it against unauthorized use!),...

And before somebody begins now; please spare me with that 'honor amongst thieves' shit because that is exactly THAT in my opinion. Namely shit-de-luxe and nothing else! Because its sole purpose is only to comfortably circumvent the fact that noone has actually ANY rights at that stuff whatsoever, thus making it ridiculous beyond every imagination to even THINK about granting anyone 'rights' that they neither have nor deserve due to their own (illegal) actions. Thats bullshit-de-luxe,...


(And no, im not saying to have these tables was a bad thing. Its great to be able to play them and i appreciate the work of those who make them. But thats not my point. The thing is i only realize that someone who doesnt have any rights on something to begin with cannot come along and demand rights for themselves when they ignored the rights of the actual owners themselves as well. Just think about it,...)

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

I stick with my original points regardless of how unpopular that makes me.

omg, elton!

how can i love you anymore?