About reviews of "all in one" software packages

TerryRed

Pinball Master
The sad thing is... sometimes when you make things easier and accommodate everyone... like add dmd and pup-pack preset options for ALL layouts and configs out there (I'm the only one doing it with PinEvent, and typically have at least 7 different layout settings I need to create for each table)...

...making it work for everyone also means that there is more info to read through and terms to understand.

In regards to FP / BAM and PinEvent... there is no excuse for lack of info or examples for anyone to use. I provide it all on every download I provide with links to everything needed. If you want the latest and greatest to work on "your" setup... then you need to read what I laid out for you so you know you are using the correct options. There's only so much I can do for people. I put in WAY more time with guides and info and support... and some people still complain.


Sorry... but the burden is on them and they have to put some time in if they want to play with all the bells and whistles. I've done more than my part.
 

shiva

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Not saying you haven't. I can understand that. I spent just as much time writing the manual for the fpxEngine as I did developing it. Nobody uses it, and that's okay. Par for the course.

The problem as I see it is simple. We need someone to just find the info that is scattered all over the place, and just link to that info into one thread.

You can't please everyone, and to be honest, it's really tough because people sometimes just don't seem to care about anything but tables, and usually it's like "Oh you put out a table last week. When is the next one coming out and I want it now."

If it's not a actual table, the vast majority of people really don't care (look at the download numbers) but the people that do care are the more important people anyway. Just keep doing what you are doing, as long as it makes you happy. That's what I do, and if people don't like it, they can go rotate as far as I am concerned. I spent the time and went through your videos, and I learned a couple things, so I am glad you made the effort because of that.
 

StevOz

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TerryRed

Pinball Master
By many in the community and the various site owners... it would be frowned upon. On all the other sites, a post / link like that would be removed.
 

shiva

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Wow, talking about a blast from the past... even my shivaEngines are there. They are missing se4 though....
 

shiva

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I think I may be to blame for this link. folder structure for a lot is exactly how I have it on my hard drive. Oops... :)
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
Something to consider...

...making a post about all in one installers... and then praising an installer that includes community made content without any care or consideration about the devs of the software being used (PuP) or possibly some table / pup-pack authors... and has ticked off a bunch of authors of content who are speaking for themselves in saying they don't want their stuff included.... as well as other vp site owners...

...and then criticizing Baller Installer for not including said content... that goes out of its way to follow the common courtesy for the community of not including community content... just 2 example tables and pup-packs which both authors agreed to...

...is not exactly going to get Nailbuster to want to direct people to this site if you are promoting an installer like Pinball Emporium. If PE had no community content and was just an installer of apps and media with settings preset, etc... then 99% of the people probably wouldn't care (if permission was given for PuP).

You won't find anyone else who has brought more to the community... especially the cabinet community... than Nailbuster.

I get that the majority of people on here are not cabinet users, or DOF users, or pup-pack users.... and tend to be only desktop players... but the cabinet world is a very different animal, and has an entirely different user base... and they see the results of installers all the time. Strange how so many people come to the sites or groups asking for help with those installers instead of getting all the help they need from the creators of these things.

Could there be an all in one for Popper that has everything included (tables, roms, pup-packs, etc) that's ready to go? Sure of course you could... and we've sadly seen many cabinet sellers in Australia do that very thing by selling it with their product.

...but we have gone out of our way to not do that as to not piss off many people who contribute so much to the hobby. Some authors have already left the hobby because of this stuff.

My priorities lie more with the people who sacrifice their time and create the content we enjoy... not those who just want a download link.
 
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shiva

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I would know all of this Terry. The stuff that you described has happened to me, and in spades.

I also have the right to be honest. for 22 years I have heard nothing but words from people who feel they have the right to say what they say, and I personally wish they gave me that right. I just decided I will no longer give them that choice. If they don't agree with what I say, so be it. Not the first time, the only thing with me is that I try and give a honest opinion as much as possible, and I am doing so with 22 years under my belt of knowing what happens when you sweep things under the rug and hope it goes away. Not talking about it is worse in my book.

The only way to fix a problem is to start talking about it, and get it out in the open. Not yelling at someone that what he is doing is wrong, just talking about it in a mature matter. No problems are ever solved by yelling at someone that way, and you certainly don't make a situation any better, only worse. By talking to someone instead, you understand things a lot better, you see value in something you didn't realize before, and you see solutions that are actually very simple that works out far better because of that.

I am not going to crucify someone that never knew about this when he started, and was very shocked and didn't know what to do about it when it came up. He just wanted to help people is all, and everyone was shouting bad at him instead of just talking to him. Naturally, all that does is cause people to dig in their heels. I did talk to him, we discussed some things, I gave him my opinion and told him exactly why I am doing so, and that's fine with him, I feel he understands my reasoning. If he wishes to continue to offer tables, that is his choice, but he has already mentioned there will be no new ones added, and that he is spending a very large amount of time making sure he gives proper due to the people who created the tables. We did discuss some alternatives as well.

When I do up a review, I will mention this has tables, and why this is bad for the community when he sends me the new version and it has tables included. I have no intention of doing anything beyond a review of the installer and the frontend, and depending on the new version, that's all I will have to do with the new version. I think his talents and his abilities have a lot of merit, and I remember when Slam first came here (before your time) he ruffled a lot of people the wrong way in almost the exact same manner as well. People do change after all.

As to baller. You've seen my video just now Terry. You know I actually think it's pretty decent, it just can be a bit better if given the time to develop a bit longer, it's a bit rough around the edges, so that's why I decided to wait a bit longer for a updated version before going in-depth on it. I think a lot of people will be very happy using it, especially those in the vpx community, and it's way better than the stock installers. No disrespect to NailBuster, if it seems that way it was because I was rather ticked off at some people who don't understand that concept of respect when I asked for help.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
That's the real bummer here. I actually do appreciate when someone IS trying to help and make things easier. I really do.

There's no doubt that many forget that new people don't know the "culture" of vp. .. and tend to jump the gun (its happened with me too).

I too at one time didn't understand why packaged installers were frowned upon, as I was not a content creator when I got into the hobby. I did however not have an all in one installer. I found the main vp and fp sites and went to town.... and dug in.

Everything I have mostly learned on my own over time.... I have tried to share in my guides and videos...and on the very handy pup wiki that myself and Nailbuster have added a lot of info for support for others to use.

It would be easier for Nailbuster and myself to include complete tables...a complete database and many other things and call it a day. It would make out lives MUCH easier. The reality though is... at least in the cabinet side of things, many people don't want a single standard. They want it their way. There are also many problems that can arise when people don't have the basics or understanding of Windows and software. and PCs. I guess we have seen it so much we forget that others have not, and don't get where we come from.

I have no doubt with more things like AtGames cabinets, etc that more of this will come up. I've been knee deep in all aspects of the cabinet culture for years now... and I see a very different mindset with most people compared to desktop only players.
 

shiva

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And a different mindset between people who have been around vp for a while, and new people just coming in. I think the big problem is I think peoples needs and wants are very different than what we want them to think. If all I want to do, is just get started and play pinball as soon as possible, then both you and I will know exactly what they will choose no matter what, even if we don't mention these programs. In fact, I hate seeing complaints about how one of my games really suck because they choose to download a program that is hopelessly out of date, and then included a table that is 10 years old and doesn't work in BAM because the table came out before Bam ever started.

Really tired of that.

My main point is people do make mistakes. People do things that are incredibly disrespectful, even more so than this issue, and not even realize they are doing it.

How we have treated this when it happens is not the way to go. We need to do things better. If we want to solve this, then ultimately we need to make the effort as a entire community. Too many people Talk the Talk, but don't walk the walk.
I'm not telling anyone what to do to solve this situation from happening over and over again. The sellers will just use something else, like hyperspin, or pinballx or coin-ops, that is the main problem.

As to your comments about tables, you don't really need to do that. People can just download themselves, and they should because it's the latest version, which is always better. It's the creation of everything else, like media resources and frontend stuff that is the main reason people use all in ones. Just a hell of a lot of work, especially if you have quite a few tables. As a author, I should include those files myself, and hope other authors do the same. That will go a long way into encouraging "new people" to use baller and others of it's type, especially if it's real easy to add tables to the front end. Database work can be done by many people, things like wheel images are already being done by people. Sort of half way there already, just need a couple dedicated people who really want to help the community to finish it off. Those people just haven't come forward yet is all.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
A huge strength Popper has is adding games easily... then adding anything extra like a pov / b2s for VPX is simply drag and drop, and its automatically placed and named correctly.

The Popper database for most tables is already completed. You just double click on your game in Games Manager... then choose the table info you want from the listed tables that match built-in web lookup search. Super easy.

Same for media in the media manager. Its all there for lookup and download for most tables. choose your preferred wheel. Choose your preferred videos, etc.

For media... there are plenty of guys that have taken the time to make HUGE amounts of media and share then all on a Mega link and on the Popper media server. Guys like Andrew Walsh has made a tonne of amazing custom FullDMD videos as an example.

I don't add / manage my tables at my cabinet. Its all done using Popper's network features. Super powerful that lets you use Popper from any PC in your network. Just drag and drop your tables / media,etc... and it gets placed where it needs to go on your cabinet.

Also... Popper voice control. you never thought you would need it until you do your first voice search with it. With MAME games that was a god send.


There are definetly two camps of preference. Those that don't care for specific media...just something in place.... and others who want options for creating their own media / or choosing from a list. Popper gives you both options.
 

shiva

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Interesting, but most people just don't have that time, or are unwilling to learn, or just looking for the easy way.

This is now at the point where we are both right, and that is the actual problem to resolving the issue. People will do what people want to do. It doesn't help that there are solutions, just for some reason people don't like it if they become public, like the databases and repositories links that are available. They certainly are not promoted. Wonder why as it would certainly make things a lot easier for people instead of hiding in shadows because they use something that is frown upon.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
Everything you need is a click away in Popper without visiting a site in regards to media and database info. All of it was submitted by those who wanted it to be available on the Popper server. Nothing shady, or conflicting there.

The availability of the database and media is well known in Pup FB groups and other cabinet centered VP groups. This is probably why there's nver been a real need to focus on a complete media collection...as everyone tends to want to have their media in Popper match their tables after they tune the pov to their liking (again... most want it their way).

I updated my entire cabinet's Popper database in one hour. As we all know... there can be 5 versions of the same table out there... but they can be dramatically different. So its nice being to just double-click and choose the "correct" table info (all fields get automatically filled... its really easy).

Same for media. Click on the table...choose all the media you "want" right there. No need to go hunting anything down anywhere else.

Don't like the media / video when you see it in use. Record a new one right there on your cabinet from the Table's sub menu in Popper.

Want all "new" media recorded so it matches your table pov,etc? Use Popper's autorecord and goto sleep. Wake up and you have new media recorded for all your tables.

It can all be done in one night easily if you have a realistic amount of tables (not like 2000+)... and it can be done to your specific liking instead of relying on someone else's taste.

Sorry... but if someone can't be bothered to take one or two nights to do that... then they don't have enough time to even play those 100's of tables to begin with.

No sympathy here. :) Like I said... I have not tolerance for gimme gimme lazy people when they have great options available.,
 
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shiva

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yeap. I think the problem then is the lack of promotion more than anything else. A lot of people just don't know about this, and especially if they are not told about it. May be it's time to come up with a better way, a thread made sticky here or something, a alternative to a problem that offers a actual solution by just putting things in one place so people can use things in as simple and easy manner as possible.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
While this page needs updating for the newer Web Lookup features (you don't need to import a new csv database file since you can just use web lookup), and other newly added features... the pup wiki has all this info.


There lots of other advanced features that probably ned to be added as well... but the wiki has a crap load of info and support on it. It's well promoted on the PUP FB group
 

shiva

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Needs to be out there with this info a bit more. Fb is great and all, but a lot of people get their info just from the forums, and the websites need to do a better job. I'm wondering if I am even allowed to post links to things like the datasheets, it almost seems there's some secret handshake required or something, and if it got out, you would be tarred and feathered for telling people publically about it.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
Regarding Dux's datasheet... I've never understood there to be any problems with it. It's table database info he's been updating and maintaining... and it has links to where the tables are on the vp sites. It doesn't give links to directly download anything... it just takes you to the download page.

Maybe I'm missing something.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
The pup wiki has always been the main place to download Pup and Popper (and has links for everything related to vp,etc), and I think the Pup/Popper download page at VPinball links to that.... and all my guides link to it as well as my video guides.

Guys with PBX or PBY or PE won't be going there if they never had a reason to.
 

shiva

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Time to give them a reason?

Anyway Terry, unlike you, I actually need to sleep sometimes. I will contact you on FB tomorrow, and give you the info on what I found with Baller. I also have something else going on that relates to this, so you might end up being quite entertained. Maybe we can discuss this a bit more on FB as well.
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
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Regarding Dux's datasheet... I've never understood there to be any problems with it. It's table database info he's been updating and maintaining... and it has links to where the tables are on the vp sites. It doesn't give links to directly download anything... it just takes you to the download page.

Maybe I'm missing something.

I've noticed that some of the newer spreadsheets are locked and require permission. I think those are the ones shared on VP Junkies & VP Addicts on FB, maybe other places. I haven't looked at them or asked for permission for a while, so I don't know if there's any hoops to go through there.

But I do sort of get the impression, like Shiva was saying, that the sheets sort of work against the interests of the various VP sites, in that they kill a certain amount of the traffic that would otherwise spend time mucking around such sites. Sort of like the "impulse buy" section in stores, or the way store layouts can be slightly labyrinthine-- i.e., to promote the idea of wandering around and finding something else of interest while you're there. That helps a user build a relationship with a site, and vice-versa. By contrast, when you have an all-in-one spreadsheet, where you're led much more directly towards just grabbing what you need, then departing.

So I can understand if the various sites aren't real crazy about the sheets. Because it doesn't really seem like there's much practical difference between being taken to a download page versus a direct link, as either way circumvents most of the site structure.

That said, I don't have a strong opinion on this stuff. Moreso just trying to speak to your thought. Personally I kind of like the sheets and kind of don't like them, but either way, they seem inevitable to me. Still the Q, tho-- how taboo or non-taboo is the mention of them at sites like this? I really don't know.

I also want to thank you (or someone above) for using the word geek-ware! I'd never really thought of it that way before, but boy, does the shoe fit. At least, nowadays. I mean, I'm glad I took a long break from the scene some years back, but it also feels like I'm Rip Van Winkle these days, searching for my familiar, old neighborhood. :s
 
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shiva

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Half and half with me as well Nic.
Kind of want people to read my forum posts on a game release. Using the sheets, people may not know this is a new release or notice it, and think they already have it. On the other hand, sure is handy...
Also, a lot of truly great tables missing there, but that's okay. That's what this site does, help promote the great classics because we really specialize in that.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
At the very least... the spreadsheet directs people to the actual vp sites, and can associate names of the content creators more with the content they are downloading.... and will know where those authors will be uploading new tables or updates in the future.

They also are seeing the support forum for the table at the download page and can (hopefully) give feedback and thanks while they are at it.

This is MUCH better then all in one packages that include every table / pup-pack / b2s in a torrent / zip file.
 
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