About reviews of "all in one" software packages

shiva

Administrator
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Well terry, what do you expect when politians get involved a little bit to much. :)

Anon, sometimes we can be pretty entertaining, but in a bad way. Nice to have something a bit different at least. PN has had it's fair share of problems before, but because we are not a "main stream" site, and really becoming a close knit community, I guess a lot of us have decided to not fall into the trap that other sites have gotten themselfs into. Even the VPX sites seem to be doing better, so much nicer than before.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
Yah, I got into the hobby around 2015 fulltime... but only dabbled with FP and VPX back in 2008'ish before that.

When I look at some old posts on all the sites... woo the drama. :)
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
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Yeah, bit ashamed of it as well. It was war between certain groups, you still see a tiny bit even now. We use to be quite the joke among the arcade boys. The community is very much divided into certain areas, like which forums you go to, editors, all sorts of stuff. Shame it could have been a bit better sooner, but we are all getting there.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
There was a time where freezy and Tom Spiers may have been trying to incorporate some kind of auto downloader of table / b2 / rom all in one type thing directly from Pinball X

I think that's what this site was the result of.


Not sure if it was not worth their efforts to pursue / evolve the idea... most likely because so many people may have been upset by it... but I honestly don't know. freezy is too busy with VPE as is anyway.
 
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shiva

Administrator
Staff member
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I can imagine. If there is one thing you can say about the entire community, we have a tendency to overreact to just about everything. Creative individuals especially. Lord, the stories I could tell...
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
That's the one thing the arcade / MAME / RetroPie communities can't relate to. They don't make any of the game they play... so they don't have any clue the crazy amount of time it takes to make a quality pinball table. To them it's just a download link.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
People are like that period, even here.
Good example, how long is it going to take for you to do your game right?
Jungle Girl took over 2 years because i decided to redo some things.
A average pinball game from Stern can take up to a year with a big team of people and cost up to a million dollars I believe was said once.

If someone wants me to make a game just so they can play it, because they "have to have it" , then I will be happy to send them my address so they can send me a check for my time (and as a big number, I don't come cheap) Don't think that will ever happen though. ;)
 

Dazz

Pinball Player
Shiva - I was with you back 20+ years ago when all of this started, but what the hell is going on with this? WTF is all this? What the hell are you smoking now, Shiva? Giving authorization to someone to include community created content... What gives you the rights to think that you can do this? Sounds like you are going down the same route that Paul did with the hostile take over of the original VPF.

Shit like this will kill off this hobby and those of us that support it.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Read it over again please Dazz. Couple points here

- The fact that we are still `going on about it 20 years later should tell you that the other ways haven't worked. Time to find a different way.
- I never said I was supporting this, I will only review any frontends without tables. I haven't changed my mind.
- The author of this frontend just wants to help people get into vpinball. I have suggested a few things to him, and mentioned most of this already here about a way for him to do so without having to include tables in future versions. If you are suggesting we should continue this attitude, then I can point out multiple times we were very selective with people like PacDude, Slam and others.
- I like this frontend, very easy to use. Despite what people are trying to spread around, FX2 and FX3 sections require you own a copy and use Steam. If the author does release a new version without tables, I see this as a far easier frontend for new beginners to get their feet wet. Baller will do fine for more advanced users.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Read it over again please Dazz. Couple points here

- The fact that we are still `going on about it 20 years later should tell you that the other ways haven't worked. Time to find a different way.
- I never said I was supporting this, I will only review any frontends without tables. I haven't changed my mind.
- The author of this frontend just wants to help people get into vpinball. I have suggested a few things to him, and mentioned most of this already here about a way for him to do so without having to include tables in future versions. If you are suggesting we should continue this attitude, then I can point out multiple times we were very selective with people like PacDude, Slam and others.
- I like this frontend, very easy to use. Despite what people are trying to spread around, FX2 and FX3 sections require you own a copy and use Steam. If the author does release a new version without tables, I see this as a far easier frontend for new beginners to get their feet wet. Baller will do fine for more advanced users-
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
....and like we've been saying....

...this is the result of those who sell community content...or share packs of community content... or those who give a big middle finger to the community sites...

Like I said.... if people keep doing this stuff (including installers with all community content thrown in), then we will see more of this happen...and everyone won't have anything to play as the "authors / content creators" won't have a community to dwell in and share their passion.

...and no..... not an April Fool's Joke.



1617337572261.png
 
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shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Sad, I guess the DOS attacks got to him. As to commercial cabinets, the community did decide to have a commercial sales outfit run the main forum. VPX certainly got more towards cabinets, and all these damn DMD plugins etc. Add to that the roms, and you have a bad mix there.

Blaming a installer with games included is just asinine, had nothing to do with this. Especially since the next version of PE will be released with a no tables version.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
Installers with "all" community content included is definitely part of the reason (not just my words).... if other site owners feel like "why am I bothering" if people grab / scrape everything off their sites and throw it on a torrent, and don't care about what the site owners and the communities there do and offer.

It's definitely not just a result from ddos / spam attacks. This has been building up for a long time now.
 
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shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Rubbish. These all in one packages have been around for 20 years. They haven't closed down a site, it's the communities behaviour that has done that every time.

I guess it's convenient to blame the easy thing, when we are facing the rapid commercialization of the vpinball industry, which is the true problem. The companies are getting involved, they are going to make a lot of money selling tables, and they will protect their IPs then. Nothing will be free.

I did receive the new version of PE, (without tables which I have stated before) so see how it is.
 

NateMac00

Pinball Wizard
Not that I'm going to change any minds here, but since our release 6 months ago, our curated community tables has increased about 6 tables to 153. Now I know the answer is going to be, even 1 is to many, but our continue support has not been to gain/supply more tables. I'm guessing most users have many more tables then what we support.

As for the selling, this is something we've seen for years:
Selling marked-up Amazon Fire Sticks with including (free)Kodi and third-party plugins to watch movies free.
Selling marked-up Nintendo & PlayStation Mini's with modded software to include additional roms.
Selling Harddrives of LaunchBox & Hyperspin with included roms and cracked versions of the front-ends.
Even back to selling CD-R's of Dreamcast games.
Also scalping GPU's, Playstation 5's & Xbox S's to sell well-over market price.

None of these are morally or legally right & neither is this, but to think this wasn't going to happen because it's 'user created' and not 'game studio'.
People saw a rise in pinball emulation and saw a way to capitalize on it. It doesn't make it right, but getting mad does nothing.
Their is only one reason someone is willing to pay for any of this, cause it's easy.
So if we want to increase these sellers income, keep it diffacult, ban users, more closed-off & less accessible. This may not represent anyone here but it's there.

Hell, I was banned from the pinup facebook group and never once talked about Emporium there. @worldofVPX has been banned from vpuniverse who does nothing BUT promote the community & developers.
The literal hate I see on the facebook groups towards fellow users (not sellers) that even question anything, is absolutely sickening.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
Really Nate?

You were bundling Pinup Player, PuP-Packs (made by many in the Pinup FB group), and tables (made by many in the various FB groups), and you included pirated FX2/ FX3...

...and you continue today to include Pinup Player and those tables and PuP-Packs that the authors have asked to not be included...

...and you are shocked that you were booted from the Pinup FB group?

While "some" people on "any" site / FB group / Discord group can jump the gun... you Nate have shown again in your current post again you just don't care about anyone else's wishes within the very community that provides the content. It's easy to point fingers at others when you just don't care and do whatever you feel like.

I'm all for making things easier... another front-end option... and even including "only" content that authors / creators have approved. Why don't you do that and keep it at that? ...but you won't...
 
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NateMac00

Pinball Wizard
I included Pinup-Player because he allows it:

CC Attribution-Noncommercial 4.0 International
You are free to:
Share — copy and redistribute the material in any medium or format
Adapt — remix, transform, and build upon the material

You can stay mad at me, but i'm willing to talk, the ones that are ddosing sites and massive scraping, are the ones hidding in the shadows just watching the community implode on itself while they make money off of our bickering.
 
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TerryRed

Pinball Master
I'm not the one you need to talk to...unless it involves content I've created and posted.

PuP is Nailbuster's work, and I do know that if you bundle PuP "without" a bunch of community made content (except that which the creators approved of), or don't include pirated PC apps, then this would be a non-issue.

Others have made installers that included PuP (and no community content)... but they "asked" Nailbuster first if it was ok. "This" is the respect everyone keeps harping about.

To be clear... I DON'T consider you the same as those who are "selling" all in one drives. I want to see what you are doing work in a way that makes everyone happy.

I'm all for anything that is easier. I've given you solutions that won't piss off everyone. The rest is up to you.
 

NateMac00

Pinball Wizard
You've made demands with zero compromise.
You talk about pirated software, yet that was only included in the first version, It's changed.
You wanted a version with no community tables, there is now a version with no community tables. it's changed
We have built into the front-end the credit for creators of the table, puppack, the version installed and when it was released. it's changed
I personally do a weekly video promoting tables and creators (non-included) tables with links to the authors preferred site location.

Guess what, I was new (and still am) to pinball when I started Emporium, I didn't know who to talk to, I didn't know the ropes, but instead of someone 'talking' to me calmly like what Shiva did and helping see all sides. You banned and vilified me INSTANTLY instead.
What part of what you did, would make someone want to change, I was already ousted, how could I ever get back in, you're still bringing up issues that were corrected in the following release.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
This was addressed to you by others on reddit and your YT channel long before you got booted. Your attitude showed just how much you didn't care back then.

Look back on this entire post. I've made it clear I think that anyone who wants "their own" apps / content included with an installer is their business. I've never said "no content ever". It's all about respect to the content creators. If they don't want it shared that way, then that's what I'm behind. If they do.. I'm behind that too.

It's simple.... contact the guys who's software and content you are including and ask THEM first. Most are on the very web sites you (should have) downloaded the content from.

I've done this for anything I've modded and uploaded. I ask them what sites they don't want it shared on, etc.

If you create a version of PE without unconsented content (which is great)... yet you still offer the version with unconsented content included (that pisses off the creators)... you really think that will satisfy everyone?

Myself, I would have gone the route of only including stuff from people who gave the go ahead... and progressively adding in more from those who are ok with it.

In fact... that would have been a "selling point" by saying community approved content, etc.
 
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shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
It's the reason I suggested a installer the authors can use themselves as part of their release package, as a great solution for everyone.

Nate you can always put up a post here like Terry's massive ones (no maybe a little less) with what the authors need in terms of doing resources like images etc so we can add support, same with you Terry.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
It can be easier.... but the problem is those who want "easy" also want "everything".

They aren't content with "some". They don't want to be bothered to download anything additional as they think this is like RetroPie. They have no relation to the community, and sadly most don't care.

You're already seeing one guy on this site having problems with a CoinOps setup because he has no clue how FP or BAM even works.
 

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
What really gets me fired up is when someone charges money for something that is completely free. I am less concerned about packages that are distributed for free. It is a bit irritating but not as bad as someone making money on something that is free.

Personally, I think we should have a goal to develop a single installer for everything except for the working files like the tables, libraries, video files etc that are needed to play a table. Most people are willing to add files to a designated location to play a table. They have been doing that in FP for years. The trick is getting all the software installed, especially all the multiple programs that exist now and get all the programs to work together. A single installer may not always be practical. A start would a decision tree that would direct an end user to an installation package that installs what they want. Of course, software does change so the installation package would have to be flexible enough to incorporate the changes.
 
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NateMac00

Pinball Wizard
What really gets me fired up is when someone charges money for something that is completely free. I am less concerned about packages that are distributed for free. It is a bit irritating but not as bad as someone making money on something that is free.

Personally, I think we should have a goal to develop a single installer for everything except for the working files like the tables, libraries, video files etc that are needed to play a table. Most people are willing to add files to a designated location to play a table. They have been doing that in FP for years. The trick is getting all the software installed, especially all the multiple programs that exist now and get all the programs to work together. A single installer may not always be practical. A start would a decision tree that would direct an end user to an installation package that installs what they want. Of course, software does change so the installation package would have to be flexible enough to incorporate the changes.
I love this idea, and I could probably go drink mojitos and hang out if that was the case.
We all seem to agree with the installers and making them easier... but a huge time suck that has caused most of my long nights is a standardized table.
This is much better with Future Pinball, but VPX and PupPacks are all over the place. For example, we standardized 'C' & 'D' as Coin & Start in every program, but half the VPX tables use 'C' as some sort of debug slow-mo ball.
Nailbuster offers this great ffmpeg automated tool to compress video files with almost no visible lose is quality, yet some of these packs are huge for no reason. I did this to mine and we brought the total size down by +10GB.
A lot of PupPacks offer options for 2 and 3 screens, but most don't, to the point i've had to photoshop Overlay files to work with two screens.
Most users don't know how to edit/find script issues, photoshop art file and edit puppacks. Knowing this shouldn't be a recommended requirement, most people don't like to deep-dive like we do.

Just as Terry has his 'PinEvent' tables, having a branding for tables/puppack that include all needed files and easy options for 1/2/3 monitors & properly compressed video files.
 
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