About reviews of "all in one" software packages

TerryRed

Pinball Master
I wouldn't have even known Pinball Nirvanna existed if I hadn't been directed to it from shiva from another site for his first release of Jungle Girl.
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
At the very least... the spreadsheet directs people to the actual vp sites, and can associate names of the content creators more with the content they are downloading.... and will know where those authors will be uploading new tables or updates in the future.

They also are seeing the support forum for the table at the download page and can (hopefully) give feedback and thanks while they are at it.

This is MUCH better then all in one packages that include every table / pup-pack / b2s in a torrent / zip file.
Oh c'mon, Terry.
IMO, it's not that you're being mean-spirited or anything, it's just... how to say-- people just don't THINK like that.
Moreso-- when the need is met, that's when the entity moves forward. Training it upon "thanks" is one of the wilder aims one might entertain.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
A lot of people just don't care unless it has a rom. PN is the second oldest website in the community, such a shame people are missing out.

I absolutely AGREE!

So many people won't even look at a table unless its based on a real table...or more so unless it uses a rom...which is sad for them because they are missing out big time.

I went from wanting "real" tables, to wanting original new tables more, as they aren't limited by a rom, and can be anything you want. This is digital pinball, so why restrict ourselves?

The reactions I've been getting with RetroFlair 2's preview video have clearly shown that many people love more than recreations of real tables.

I'm also sad I didn't know about PN earlier, as I've missed out on a nice little community here... and have I said that I love this forum software WAY more than any other site? :)
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Everyone works real hard here (except me of course, I just jump out of shadows and scare people) and are very proud of what this site has become in the last year.
A lot of the games here though are pretty old. Makes sense, but some are still very playable. We are hoping that the old time authors do pop in and let use know if we can upload their old games back in. I loaded up mine, even if it doesn't work great anymore (16 years old!) but sure would like games like Card Sharks back.
Geez I wish I had the time to do things. Would love to get fpxEngine running better, and doing what it is suppose to do. Be very helpful in getting some of these old games that haven't seen a new release in 15 years back up with a new up to date translation, or just allow people to make their own from scratch pretty quickly. Too tough to do a game for most people, but I am sure a lot of them would use something like that, even if it is for *horrors* FP
 

NateMac00

Pinball Wizard
I'm the author of Pinball Emporium. I'm not here to defend my work only to express what I've seen and why I choose to continue doing what I do.

I would safely say that more then 90% of users that come to Emporium are not new to virtual pinball. They are simply users that have been pushed away by the community because they didn't understand something or became so fed up with the complexity and non-standardized of content, that they gave up. If I wasn't helping people continue to enjoy this hobby, I wouldn't keep doing it. What other reason do I have to continue?

Do you know what the one things someone has never thanked me for? Including tables.
Emporium has nothing to do with the inclusion of tables expect to people; that don't use it, would never give it a chance and would look down on people that choose to use it.

What has made Emporium so popular, so fast, is what it does for it's user. To be naive in believing the only reason people choose Emporium is because I clicked on a bunch of download links for them is to not understand the community outside the inner-circle. The ones that believed they were not smart enough to do this with what was currently available to them.

Installing and setting up tables is easy; in it's the easiest of term, is simply not true (in the majority). Media content aside, VPX tables constantly use bloated unneeded code between tables. In just recent examples; A normal user would not understand why when they added the Pokemon PupPack to there collection and launched Bladerunner 2049, the Pokemon Puppack starts playing.
As someone who has had a crash course in everything virtual pinball, I did a 5 hour live streaming this past Sunday on debugging PupPacks to work with 2 Screen setup, and this was coming from content that had already been around for months mostly working.
If a user only has a 2 Screen cabinet, they should not need to spend hours(for someone that knows what they are doing) or days, getting content working for their setup. Installing tables is not easy.

"If people want plug and play then they need to just do FX3."
"For anyone who uses this, then tries to visit any vpin forum or Facebook group for help you won't get any. "
Just a quick search for a couple of good one...

Competition furthers innovation... I'm very happy for the release of Baller, I think it will be a great tool. I wish it was out sooner as maybe I would of spent my spare time on another hobby.

Did you know, Emporium has been around less then 5 months?
Their were plenty of the "table-packs" (as people put it) well before me that have come and gone.
The one reason we are even having this discussion was that enough people thought Emporium was needed in the tsunami of information that was out there.

Emporium is here and I am always willing to listen, but when it's been nothing but hostility to myself and the users of Emporium (for the most part), I know that needed disruption is never taken lightly from the ones on top.

I will continue to go out of my way to work with table developers in the future and showcase their amazing work, but I will not let users be bullied into thinking they are dumb or should just give up on something they want to do.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
It's been said many times...

If PE didn't include community made content (tables / pup-packs)... then most wouldn't be upset at what you are doing. Having an installer is nothing new (hence the VPX AIO Installer).

If PE was just your own front-end (nothing wrong with that either, as everyone has preferences) with media and preset settings... and all the user had to do was get the tables and pup-packs themselves.... then you would be getting praise by those who are upset.... but that is not the case here.

Oh, and not to mention you were including pirated copies of FX2 / and FX3 at one time.... so that brought some other reactions you got on yourself.

You clearly know why so many are upset... many of them being the ones who create the very games you and others enjoy. If you don't care about their opinions.... why should should they support what you are doing? When your attitude is... "I'm going to do it anyway"..... well you shouldn't be shocked by those guys being upset.

Release a version of PE without the tables and pup-packs.... and see if everyone is still happy... including those who have been downloading PE. See if their gracious attitudes are still there.
 
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TerryRed

Pinball Master
To be clear... I've said before... if you consulted with the content creators as to only having the inclusion of their specific tables and pup-packs that they approve of (and asked Nailbuster about including PuP)... and they were fine with it... then all power to you, as that is between them and you. If that was the case... then I would defend PE myself.
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
Oh c'mon, Terry.
IMO, it's not that you're being mean-spirited or anything, it's just... how to say-- people just don't THINK like that.
Moreso-- when the need is met, that's when the entity moves forward. Training it upon "thanks" is one of the wilder aims one might entertain.
Eh, pardon. That was my obligatory outburst of the month.

The contract has now been fulfilled.
Godspeed, sir.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
I've been there but there doesn't seem to be a download link.

1616545959496.png
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I've given this a little bit of thought, but just don't have that type of paygrade to know if it's possible. It's just a idea, but having baller for the people who use vpx already, and having PE for the "consumers" who would be lost completely getting started here is a good idea.

I think having tables included is the problem, and only problem. The tables included will get out of date soon enough anyway, and from what I understand, there will be more more new ones or the existing ones be upgraded, it's just the other bits.

Anyway, Nate, is it possible to instead have a simple installer that a author can use that will automatically put all the required information needed for the frontend directly into PE? With so many consumer level users starting to appear, and they want their ATGames/Arcade1Up/Toyshock units to play vpx/fp, maybe we can kill 2 birds with one stone here. Feathers ruffled will be smoothed over, people with no clue about vpx/fp will be able to get to play their tables without pulling their hair out, , the websites will get their downloads and authors that support this format will get their tables out to more people and get the recognition they deserve.

That possible?
 

NateMac00

Pinball Wizard
Absolutely! This is how I deal with the Media Art for the Weekly Table (download) Showcase.
As long as the files are in the correct folder Tree, simply dragging(or extracting) the folder into the root of emporium, puts all the files in the correct location. With little effort this could be expanded to Table files as well.
 

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shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
There you go then. Thought it was possible. If you get that going and working, just post here and tell us authors how to do it. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be more comfortable doing it this way, and I'm pretty sure us poor ignored FP authors would support this then, as quite a few are not happy with preinstalled tables. I certainly would support this with my games, it's not hard for PN in terms of resources either. You get to do things you want as well, maybe offer your services and help us make better and better tables. :)
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
It was always possible to not include tables and pup-packs. Like I said before... no one would have been upset about that if they weren't included, and you would have been getting more positive feedback from "the community" and those who make this stuff and not just those who don't care about it.

When it comes to Pinup Player... everyone still should ask Nailbuster for approval to include it with anything.

For media... if it's just a simple plain videos of the table / backglass / dmd... then there should be no issue having a complete collection of that, as well as generic wheel images.

If it's custom fancy media that a lot of guys are making with animations and other things... then you should ask them before using / including that out of courtesy.

Same goes goes for pup-packs (which is not just simple videos...they can be complex and are a hell of a lot of work). The creators of those should be asked about including them with anything.

It's not like PBX, PBY, Popper devs didn't know "how" to include everything. They chose to honor the wishes of content creators.... and those guys should come first in my book.
 
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shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Missing the point Terry a little
- One we don't have to support popper if we don't want to, that would be the authors choice.
- Two with this new methods, the authors have complete control on if they want to support this, and also complete control on how they want every aspect of their table to be presented. Before there were some times they didn't
- Three - This really has nothing to do with baller. That's a community thing, supported by people who know what they are doing. I see PE as a very valuable aspect, and solves so many problems that have been plaguing this community for 20 years. There is no reason for any brand new user to not use baller after he is comfortable eneough with the complexities of vpx and fp. PE is aimed right at people who just want to start playing pinball, and this method allows them to do that while not causing massive flame wars like it usually does over the last 20 years.
- Four - As a author, I'm tired of spending hundreds of hours on my game and being lucky to get 300 downloads just because it's not a rom game. My games are very good, and I can name a hundred other tables that are just as good. I want more people to enjoy my games
- Five - After 20 years of people crying,screaming, yelling, and digging in their heels maybe it's time to compromise a little and work on a solution that benefits everyone far more. Nothing ever got solved, it just keeps happening over and over. I'm sick of it personally, that's the reason I decided to get involved.
- Six - The reason people buy these preset cabinets complete with tables is because they don't have the knowledge to install them themselves. That is the true source of income for the people we all hate. If we as a community promote that we hate it so much, how wrong it is, and have another way for new users to put in these games themselves, I sure we will take a chunk out of these sellers. A lot of people would be far more comfortable not doing something illegal if they had a way to do it properly.

Sigh, gf called... damn. There's a lot more reasons I think, stuff that hasn't occurred to us yet. I see this as a solution that we all win if we want it to be. Maybe we should just continue the conversation and see what we can come up with?
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
@shiva

Woah, I don't know what you are reading... but you are a little mixed up here, and are confused as the what software is what, and what I'm trying to say.

"Pinup Player" = stand alone software (needed for pup based tables and pup-packs)

"Pinup Popper" = front-end that "makes use of" Pinup Player

You don't need to install or require Popper if you only want to play pup based tables or use pup-packs. You only need to install Pinup Player.

"Baller" is an installer of numerous apps,etc. Nothing more.


No where am I saying that anyone needs to use / support Popper or use the Baller installer.

I've only said that if anyone wants to include "Pinup Player" as part of an installer.... they need to consult Nailbuster. That isn't "grey"... that's pretty clear cut.


I've also made it clear... that if "any" author / content creator wants their tables made available as part of an installer / pack (or whatever means they want)... then that is their choice, and it's no one's business... and more power to them.

Again... I'm not telling anyone what they can do with their own content / creations... but I also think it's a bit of a dick move to tell them what to do with someone else's software or creations. Take the time to at least "ask" those guys.

I think it's great to make things easier. Whoever wants to get involved to make that happen, I'll be the first to support it, if it's done the right way. Just take the time to do it in a way that won't piss off the people that in my opinion matter... the guys that make the stuff we play.
 
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shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Sorry Terry, I guess I misunderstood your words in your post. I was huried by the GF though.

I would like to see the two main authors get together as well. I think a unified front and a standard would be the very best thing, and for once, not end up splinting the community in half like everything else has ended up doing because people don't actual talk though their problems.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
I actually meant "table authors"... not front-end authors. :)

Popper and PE are two very different approaches for very different features and levels of customization... as is Pinball X and Pinball Y. Which I think is a good thing... as we had only one mainly popular pinball front-end before... and well.... there is a reason why we multiple now. :) Not everyone wants the same thing.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
True, and I know that one. The entire history of vp has been that. I personally hope a compromise can be reached here. I really don't see it being better otherwise. As a Military guy, you have been trained to win at all costs, and unfortunately, that's exactly why things like this never get resolved, as throughout the years with all of these arguements, everyone has to win at all costs. All that happens is we get 100% of nothing, and as a author, I would just like it to be a better situation. We are all very very passionate about pinball, and maybe we all take things a bit too much.
Honestly, this is the best thread in PN history, no yelling, no flaming or trolling. It's just nice to have a normal conversation about a issue that has affected the community for a long time.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
The military comparison is more accurate than you can ever imagine... but not for the winning aspect... more for the red tape aspect of it all ;)
 

AnonTet

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Honestly, this is the best thread in PN history, no yelling, no flaming or trolling. It's just nice to have a normal conversation about a issue that has affected the community for a long time.

If only it was only on PN... it goes much further than this site I assure you, unfortunately.

Anyway, I was expecting to stop reading a while ago and for my own surprise, still here.

I'm really glad I joined here albeit a bit too late.
 
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