Tutorial Physics/XML Smoke..... ideas and concept for physics!

[Paolo]

Autor @shiva /blue Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:08 am

I have no problems with gates now with Jungle Girl. You can just lift the settings in the xml file (I'm away from my main computer and wont be back for a while, so if people have my earlier first beta release they can just post the gate xml code)

These settings were done to fix the gate problem if they are horizontal, the ball would get stuck because of the collision problems with the wire gate object, or just "hit back" if the gates are vertical. Seems to work fine now, no problems since I worked out the settings. Your results may vary though.

 

[Paolo]

Autor @GeorgeH Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:26 am

I don't recall your posting but I'll gladly wait until you get back to your PC and post the code.

George

 

[Paolo]

Autor @GeorgeH Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:25 am

Wait, I do have a copy of JG. The gate parameters seem really low but I will try them:

<gate mass=".1" gravity="500.0" damping=".25"></gate>

I am curious. Why do you have the ball gravity set so high at 20,000?

George

 

[Paolo]

Autor @smoke Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:55 am

SLAMT1LT wrote:
The same thing is happening on my latest Star Trek release, but only because I fire the ball so hard and so quickly from the plunger lane. I have modified the gate's physics properties, as recommended by Smoke in this thread, and this issue is now reduced but not eliminated.

But we can fake anything in FP....gates can be faked, spinners faked, bumpers faked...as long as we can get the desired affect without it being noticed then that's fine.

try to move up a little your gate and/or try to fine tunning the gate 3d collision model (reduce it but keep its rotation axis the same) in fp model editor.

you can look at the model used in ID4 (i've got a lot of trouble with the middle gate or the main ramp)

 

[Paolo]

Autor @shiva /blue Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:33 pm

Because I like the way it plays george.

My settings seem to work fine for the gates, it hasn't messed up once in quite a while, no hangs, no bounce back. If a gate object is horizontal, (left to right) the ball will pass through both directions even if it's set to one way, or get stuck at the top even if it's set to one way downwards. (You need a dropable wall no matter what in other words to prevent that) The settings allow the ball to go down through the gate, and yet still work fine if the gate is vertical. I noticed this bug a bit in Fathom as well, the ball would just pass through the gate either direction, or get stuck above the gate. These were just the settings that seem to work best.

 

[Paolo]

The thread ends with this last comment from blue .

 

[Paolo]

smoke wrote:
gravity : 9.810 m/s2


My goal is to try to do the most accurate physics with using the most real world values.
In the following i assume that we use a table slope of 6.5 degree.


THE BALL
=========
First let's discover if future pinbal use SI units.
So let's try <ball mass="0.80" gravity="9.810" damping="0.80"></ball>
what's going on? it's like playing pinball in the international space station. The ball is floating !!!

Maybe the author of future pinbal doesn't use kg and m units?
let's try to change the mass value to gram and length to millimeter. That's could make sense as future pinball editor use millimeters for placing objects.


let try <ball mass="80.0" gravity="9810.0" damping="0.80"></ball>
Hmmmmmm much better no ?

analyzing this part better, I see that there is something different

I lately do with this way
' <ball newtonDamping="0.002" mass="90" gravity="6500" damping="1.0"></ball>

not this....
' <ball newtonDamping="0.002" mass="90.0" gravity="6500.0" damping="1.0"></ball>

and give it a try, but it will be a . or a ,?

 

[shiva]

I don't use the gate object in jungle girl anymore :)

 

[NitroNimbus]

How long is a piece of string?
I am so happy @Paolo has been so invested in this topic of physics's.
I think we all aim for the stars, either creating or modding a table.
Reality is, it is not possible to play like the real world, so we do the best we can!
But @Paolo is right, there is always room for improvement.
I hope @Paolo cracks the code, as impossible as it might seem.
@Gimli, no offense to anyone else, but you are the FP Guru.
Is it possible to improve the physic's, or are we all just going around in circles, cheers!

 

[Paolo]

Reality is, it is not possible to play like the real world, so we do the best we can!
But @Paolo is right, there is always room for improvement.
I hope @Paolo cracks the code, as impossible as it might seem.

@NitroNimbus
Between reality and virtual is an abyss of difference, this,at least we all know.

smoke, was the first to get involved, in looking for a physics configuration based on the real one, he explained many things, but then you see that the thread stops abruptly, because in my opinion:

1) because it didn't have many followers,and it is well known that if an author he is not enticed, or stimulated, or questioned, he may not could continue.
2) didn't he have the means to continue? for example .... a bam like now?
3) or rather, has found its balance in physics, almost perfect physics is created.

the speech stops on "Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:38 pm" ...... and resumed "Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:51 am" after 5 years, but attention nothing less from slamtilt...("an surprise")....with smoke's reply on Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:55 am which will then be his last comment....why?

the fact is that when smoke makes a table it receives many comments, that another table does not even dream of receiving,why?..... we know, what tables we're talking about, the last one "ghostbusters", nor is it an example.....and all loves physics fo this table,there are no complaints....that is, a user who plays at a smoke table is satisfied, why?..............now the "why" are three.

is there is a lot to say for example it does not use the DF, the standard or shiva one, and some other code that affects physics.

I'll explain it to you, the why's ...........but I'll do it in another thread

 

[Gimli]

@NitroNimbus
Between reality and virtual is an abyss of difference, this,at least we all know.

smoke, was the first to get involved, in looking for a physics configuration based on the real one, he explained many things, but then you see that the thread stops abruptly, because in my opinion:

1) because it didn't have many followers,and it is well known that if an author he is not enticed, or stimulated, or questioned, he may not could continue.
2) didn't he have the means to continue? for example .... a bam like now?
3) or rather, has found its balance in physics, almost perfect physics is created.

the speech stops on "Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:38 pm" ...... and resumed "Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:51 am" after 5 years, but attention nothing less from slamtilt...("an surprise")....with smoke's reply on Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:55 am which will then be his last comment....why?

the fact is that when smoke makes a table it receives many comments, that another table does not even dream of receiving,why?..... we know, what tables we're talking about, the last one "ghostbusters", nor is it an example.....and all loves physics fo this table,there are no complaints....that is, a user who plays at a smoke table is satisfied, why?..............now the "why" are three.

is there is a lot to say for example it does not use the DF, the standard or shiva one, and some other code that affects physics.

I'll explain it to you, the why's ...........but I'll do it in another thread

Smoke possesses all the skills of coding and table design. And he seemed to have them out of the gate which always made me wonder if he was previously involved under a different name
Ie “Blind mankind” “Rom” or “glxb”

Also smoke releases impeccable blockbusters like TOTAN and Ghostbusters

If you read slams post from today he eludes to using BAMs latest features and his discoveries regarding what he calls “geometry “. This involves tweaking everything on the table and using accurate models.

Both Slam and Smoke use BAM to varying degrees mixed with their magic and learned techniques

So , it seems we cannot escape the balance between art and science.

Are we going in circles? Yes but such is the dance.

With the current quality of the work the community is producing thru new releases and mods. I am currently content and not striving to unravel the mystery

I think Shiva’s approach to a unified engine is exciting

I like that all the guts of FP are now available to the scalpel and that should allow for much innovation !

I applaud your work and enthusiasm Paolo.

If more people drink @TerryRed s cool-aid who know where this bird will soar

 

[TerryRed]

@Gimli

Yah, I'm drinking A LOT now, lol.

Getting a normal table's ramps, etc working nicely and playing better is one thing... getting Silent Hill to play nice with 5 sets of ramps that change throughout the game is...... fun.

 

[Gimli]

@Gimli

Yah, I'm drinking A LOT now, lol.

Getting a normal table's ramps, etc working nicely and playing better is one thing... getting Silent Hill to play nice with 5 sets of ramps that change throughout the game is...... fun.

View attachment 21422

At @Isaac Sauvage s prompting I have added 4 different labyrinth playfield s (Easy , Intermediate Hard and Golf) to same game.
So as this is relatively easy (and mundane) compared to silent hill I consider this a potential win in the arms race of tables with swappable playfields unless you already released retro 2

 

[TerryRed]

No, Silent Hill will probably be finished first, then back the finishing RetroFlair 2.

It's a curse when you have lots of great ideas... and even more a curse once you know "how" to make them work.... but you know how much time it will take to make it happen.

Silent Hill was always going to be my dream theme table that I made myself... so once I started dabbling with it in RF2, I knew there was no going back.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

At @Isaac Sauvage s prompting I have added 4 different labyrinth playfield s (Easy , Intermediate Hard and Golf) to same game.

Amazing. I was thinking it would be neat to offer a combined easy & advanced version, and you done went and hit the multiplier, mister topper!

Btw, on Sunday I should finally have time to play-test again, so feel free to send your latest & greatest update before then.

What with this big leap, and the potential timer-based scoring system, I feel like this is going to be not just a milestone FP-BAM table, but a super-fun game for people to enjoy. I look forward to adding a reference to wiki's FP entry, and I wonder if maybe Rafal might be interested in listing showcase tables like this and Terry's RetroFlair on his site, as well.

 

[Gimli]

Amazing. I was thinking it would be neat to offer a combined easy & advanced version, and you done went and hit the multiplier, mister topper!

Btw, on Sunday I should finally have time to play-test again, so feel free to send your latest & greatest update before then.

What with this big leap, and the potential timer-based scoring system, I feel like this is going to be not just a milestone FP-BAM table, but a super-fun game for people to enjoy. I look forward to adding a reference to wiki's FP entry, and I wonder if maybe Rafal might be interested in listing showcase tables like this and Terry's RetroFlair on his site, as well.

FP /BAM has advanced on several fronts not just “physics” but also features and functions.

I am currently enamoured with features and functions as is Terry I think…there are all these things Rav has enabled that I haven’t poked and prodded yet

 

[GeorgeH]

@Gimli

Yah, I'm drinking A LOT now, lol.

Getting a normal table's ramps, etc working nicely and playing better is one thing... getting Silent Hill to play nice with 5 sets of ramps that change throughout the game is...... fun.

View attachment 21422

You must be a glutton for punishment adding so many ramps. FP's ramps are a pain to work with. I have been adding an approach ramp to all the ramps I have been working on. FP ramps are added using the straight shot approach. There is no gradual incline to it. Adding a short ramp to the entrances of the ramps that is not as steep as the main ramp helps to imitate the gradual rise of a better ramp. Also a small change in the geometry can make a big difference in the way the ramp performs.

Smoke's original postings that Paolo reposted here is where I learned to reduce the settings for gates. A gate on a ramp will definitely slow the ball down a lot. I normally use these settings on tables that have gates on ramps:

<gate mass="0.010" gravity="100" damping="0.25"></gate>

 

[Paolo]

There is no gradual incline to it.

The ramps are a pain it is true, but only if "we" want to punish yourself. It is obvious that if you take a table that was made a long time ago, you will always find these problems ..... the geometry of a ramp is like an art, you have to have the tools and suitable knowledge.

I don't know what you mean, when you say "there is no gradual incline to it" but the ramps can be inclined, certainly from the highest to the lowest point, only what you enter works

<gate mass="0.010" gravity="100" damping="0.25"></gate>

and if you try this,work better......

<gate mass="0.005" gravity="2500.0" damping="0.25"></gate>

you should also adjust the elasticity.....in <gateMat
elasticCoef="0.24".......also in <metalMat........elasticCoef="0.2

if you like these values.

 

[TerryRed]

I think George means the geometry of the "FP" generated ramps don't have a perfect smooth transition from the incline to the top part of the ramp.

If someone is a 3d modeler guru with Blender, they certainly can make their own better models.... and use these in FP. Many tables have this from the likes of Rom and others (motu, Tron,etc).

Since VPX was never good at making ramps (and doesn't make wire ramps, which FP is good at making)... many of those table authors had no choice but to learn how to make their own ramps in Blender. I myself, need to take the time to learn this as well.... one day.

 

[GeorgeH]

A good ramp is shaped much like climbing a hill when you drive a car. As you go up the hill, the slope gradually increases and when get near the peak the hill starts leveling out. On FP, the ramp has a straight percentage incline. There is no gradual slope increase or decrease as the ball goes up the ramp. That is the reason I add an approach ramp that is not as steep as the main ramp. This imitates the gradual incline that you see on a hill (plus I do it because it makes the ramp perform better).

Of course as Terry said, you can build your own ramps. I have however seen quite a few defects on custom built ramps on tables I have modified.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Since VPX was never good at making ramps (and doesn't make wire ramps, which FP is good at making)...

Love this discussion, but I don't understand the above at all.

VP (even much earlier versions than VPX, like maybe VP5?) seem to in fact excel at wire ramps. Also, in graduating a ramp in terms of pitch very smoothly from entrance to exit.

So... huh!
Maybe then, is it possible that VPX, in trying to go more 'true-3D' as it were, sort of broke the prior VP ramp behavior...?

 

[TerryRed]

That should have said make "good" wire ramps.

Yes, remember that VP was not a complete 3d environment from the start... and to this day this still holds back VP in many ways. So tables needed to be created specifically for desktop, and then another for cabinet,etc. VPX did better with this, but there are still things that don't automatically work in both views, as some elements are still static,etc.

It was very common for VPX table builders to use FP to create wire ramps and then convert those to VPX as a primitive ramp. (though nowadays, its more common to just build the whole table in blender).

https://vpuniverse.com/forums/topic/1396-future-pinball-ramps-in-visual-pinball-tutorial/

The Virtual Pinball Forums

Future Pinball Ramps in Visual Pinball - Tutorial - posted in Tutorials: Its common knowledge that default ramps in Visual Pinball are terrible You dont get support rings, proper 3d lighting effects, hard to work with, and if you do create a wire ramp using smaller ramps to get the effect you...

www.vpforums.org

 

[GeorgeH]

I don't usually have many problems with wire ramps although the interface point of a wire ramp and solid ramp can be problematic. On most tables, wire ramps are usually on the downhill side so they aren't much trouble. Downhill is usually easy.

The solid ramps don't seem to be as smooth as they appear. I have been getting balls stuck at midpoints on ramps with Dr Who and no reason seems possible except for an uneven ramp. So I end up adding shape points and removing them which does change things even it you keep the shape the same.

 

[HZR]

if you keep a constant slope on the tables, the physics should follow a formula, you can adjust damping and omega for heights of ramps etc could one not?
there has to be a formula to follow.

 

[GeorgeH]

if you keep a constant slope on the tables, the physics should follow a formula, you can adjust damping and omega for heights of ramps etc could one not?
there has to be a formula to follow.

It does seem logical that a single XML should work for all tables that have the same characteristics. My experience is that each table is somewhat unique so there is some benefit tweaking the XML specific to the table. Physics seems to be a little more subjective. I did post this guide that has physics for many table although there is a bit of improvement that can be gained if you tweak it a bit.

Tutorial - Physics/XML - A Simple Way to Add Physics to Any Future Pinball (FP) Table with Original Physics

This tutorial can still be used although there is a new tutorial for FizX Lite Edition that you should consider using that is available here. It does require a little more work to add to your table. Note: This tutorial requires that you have Better Arcade Mode (BAM) installed. I wrote...

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