Some Brand New Same Old

[bob]

Well, that didn't put much light on the subject of why I'm suppose to hate the most popular Visual Pinball forum. Of course the actual forum is only a place to hang out, so no matter what has happened behind the scenes, it would have little effect on what I think about VPF. Likewise, if you were to tell me BJ was a monster, I would still like him. If you told me Black was Randy or Black was a saint, I still would think he was an asshole. I can only base my feelings on what I have perceived over the last 3 years.

 

[StevOz]

But bob, you and kinsey get along fine these days, I remember a time when it was not exactly so, what if it was BJ that set you and her up?

Pure speculation and for the most part I think we should leave the skeltons in the closet, bringing them out aint going to help anyone or anything.

Why is VPF the most popular, well those VPM tables are hosted there, it's where most peeps start, that said VPF was running a poor second in popularity to VPFF once before.

Does that answer your question bob?

 

[shiva]

No, it dates from even before that, with me. I was the first one to have my reputation destroyed by VPF, in fact, I was the first of what would be a very long string of people. It seems to happen with every group of new staff, doesn't it?
I lost the hippie server, and then my personal problems happened with my marriage breakup, child custody battle, and my health problems. I come back, and see my name attached to another site, and my reputation because of it go down hill. Then the Nicky episode happened, and I got left hanging in the wind, and that never would have happened if one person had actually spoken up, instead of promptly hiding behind a rock.
Bet that one sounds very familar to Kinsey, that happened to her. I bet it also sounds very familar to other former staff as well when they were in charge. Guess what, it just happened again didn't it?
You guys think the cost is worth it, even if you ignore all the other episodes, and just concentrate on this one?
Fixx is gone, and no matter what you may think of him, his heart was in the right place, and he didn't deserve this, because he thought he was doing his part to serve the community the best he could. Lio is taking it on the chin as well, one of the most respected people here period, and he did this for the community. What about the moderators, they do the same, and they are affected as well. They all are there, because they felt they could do their part to help the community. They didn't deserve this either.
The only thing they did was try and do their part, and they made a decision, and it was the wrong decision, and they are paying for it now.
How many other people are walking around with eggs on their faces now? How many people have left because of this? You think the cost is worth it? I don't, I didn't think the cost was worth every other time this has happened either.
You know what, I can understand if people are sick of this, and just want this to end, put it behind us and continue on. I wanted the same thing in the beginning as well. That's what happened before, and that's what happened several times in fact. The fact that I am still saying this is because I am sick and tired of it. No matter what, it keeps coming back, time after time, and more and more people end up being hurt from it, and everytime afterwards, it just gets swept under the carpet, a new staff is put in place, everything is hunky dorey for 10 or 12 months, then it happens again.
If that's acceptable, then fine, but also understand that the layer of egg on your faces will increase as well. Everyone is walking around with eggs on their faces, whether they know it or not. Some are public, starting with me, and working it's way down to just about every staff member that ever worked there, but most of everyone else don't know. I don't want the information to come out, because no matter how terrible this situation is, and it's absolutely god aweful, it still would be better than have the entire community walk around with eggs on their faces as well, and knowing it.
If I could fix this I would. I have no idea how to, I wish I had a magic wand to wave around, that would fix everything, but I don't. I see the end of VPF, and I also see it taking the community with it, and I see no way around it. That's what is concerning me so much, and I hope to god I am wrong, but that's what I am seeing.
You can't fix this, it would require the actions of one person, who never has done so before, to admit his responsibilty, which he never has done before either, to set in motion the chance to heal this.

 

[StevOz]

Ah, your such a chicken steve. :)

We'll see.

 

[shiva]

Then why are there feathers always flying around everytime you make a appearance. :)

About all this, sorry guys, I have to fight for this.We all deserve better than this.

 

[StevOz]

Then why are there feathers always flying around everytime you make a appearance. :)

About all this, sorry guys, I have to fight for this.We all deserve better than this.

Eh.......somebody has got to go collect those eggs and sort 'em.

 

[bob]

But bob, you and kinsey get along fine these days, I remember a time when it was not exactly so, what if it was BJ that set you and her up?

My problem with Kinsey was strictly based on PM's exchanged between the two of us, so unless someone stole her account and answered her PM's then my beef was with only her.

Why is VPF the most popular, well those VPM tables are hosted there, it's where most peeps start, that said VPF was running a poor second in popularity to VPFF once before.

Does that answer your question bob?

Not really, it's more that the other sites don't have anything that is of interest to them. You even just stated that VPFF was busier than VPF once, that means the posters can find a place even if the link was not allowed to be posted at VPF :)

 

[tiltjlp]

But bob, you and kinsey get along fine these days, I remember a time when it was not exactly so, what if it was BJ that set you and her up?

My problem with Kinsey was strictly based on PM's exchanged between the two of us, so unless someone stole her account and answered her PM's then my beef was with only her.

Why is VPF the most popular, well those VPM tables are hosted there, it's where most peeps start, that said VPF was running a poor second in popularity to VPFF once before.

Does that answer your question bob?

Not really, it's more that the other sites don't have anything that is of interest to them. You even just stated that VPFF was busier than VPF once, that means the posters can find a place even if the link was not allowed to be posted at VPF :)

Steve gave you the answer Bob, vpf if the most popular because it traffics ONLY in VPM, and the majority of member are only interested in VPM. That and, as I've said before Force Of Habit.

John

 

[PacDude]

Here's my thoughts.

Kinsey... Well let's just say Apocalypse told me point blank when I was reinstated that yes indeed she WAS the one responsible for me being banned at VPF in the first place. I was shown an e-mail bit that pretty much said she thought since I was claming I was "banned" at Retrogames forum (even though I meant banned from posting at the time), she might as well go ahead and do it. That e-mail was sent to AJ so she acted without his knowledge at the time to boot. AJ just decided to back her up. Now she's said time and time again she had nothing to do with ANYONE being banned there, etc. etc. and I think we all know the little Ms. Innocent routine doesn't go very far. She was king of the hill there and had last say on everything and so she was responsible one way or the other for EVERYTHING that went on behind the scenes. That's how the chain of command works.

Now here we clearly see once again that Shiva has an axe to grind. He admitted he thinks his name was dragged through the mud by even being related to VPF and we know he thinks AJ is an idiot who shouldn't own VPF and sure as heck shouldn't be in charge of it. He's made that clear time and time again, complaining about the server and the forum software until we're blue in the face. I think he wants to see VPF take a fall and as soon as possible. I can only imagine that would be so the community will support his site first and foremost. Me, I couldn't care less where the community goes, personally as long as the people running the site are fair and reasonable. If they are not, people have to speak up. No one wants to live or work under tyranny. Mr. Fixx chose to leave. No one made him. He could have just as easily apologized for making a newbie mistake and we all would have moved on. But people like Kristian are still peeved about the past (it took a LONG time after I came back before he agreed to come back to VPF and that was purely by choice; his own banned status was removed long before mine, but he was TICKED at how they handled the matter and never apologized for it) and so when he sees signs of the past coming again, he isnt' going to wait to speak up about it. He asked me to back him up on this issue and so I did (I was going to just stay out of it) as I respect his opinion. So people who think I'm out to stir it up by giving my commentary there don't really have a clue.

Here comes the twisted words bit again; I can feel it.

 

[shiva]

The only person that seems to twist words around here is you PacDude. I guess you can't read either, because I stated more than a few times the last little while that I don't want it, I can't support it, and I also made it clear that I'm speaking as a member. You think I want this? My goodness, then you really need help.
I don't want this, I just want it to be better. If your nose is so out of joint about it because there are people that agree with me fine. There's admin positions available at VPF right now, in fact, the God admin position is available. Since you seem to be so intent on believing that I want to take over the entire community, then why don't you apply for that position then, since you seem to be so critical of me.
I am more than happy to just run my little website, and I am even happier that I don't have to worry about other problems leaking in when such a fine and upstanding member is in charge of the "community site".

 

[PacDude]

See? I'm psychic. There's the twisted words line just like I predicted.

As for mod or admin positions, I've turned down moderator offers at VPF in the past and here from Jon in the past year. I don't have time to do it and make VPM tables. It's that simple. My job is going to be reassigned soon and I may not have time for anything for quite some time.

But if you think complaining about the way VPF is run in general and making secretive remarks about behind the scenes things is going to HELP make it BETTER over there, somehow I sincerely doubt it. And despite what you say about the past year, I think The Loafer was doing a pretty good job just like someone here said already and you disagreed with. If his daughter hadn't developed her strange physical ailment (now there's a real thing to worry about), we wouldn't be having this discussion. But he's right to step down and take care of her problems. Pinball is inconsequential compared to someone's life, even if some people make it seem otherwise at times.

 

[Guest]

The only person that seems to twist words around here is you PacDude. I guess you can't read either, because I stated more than a few times the last little while that I don't want it, I can't support it, and I also made it clear that I'm speaking as a member. You think I want this? My goodness, then you really need help.
I don't want this, I just want it to be better. If your nose is so out of joint about it because there are people that agree with me fine. There's admin positions available at VPF right now, in fact, the God admin position is available. Since you seem to be so intent on believing that I want to take over the entire community, then why don't you apply for that position then, since you seem to be so critical of me.
I am more than happy to just run my little website, and I am even happier that I don't have to worry about other problems leaking in when such a fine and upstanding member is in charge of the "community site".

AMEN TO THAT.

Pacdud your "innocent victim" crap was OLD 2 years ago.
PLEASE SHUT THE HELL UP.
Must be over your "depression session". Back to your "full of yourself" worst.
Your mouth got you into equally as much trouble as Kinsey did.
Now go out and get yourself a woman and get yourself a LIFE because you DESPERATELY NEED ONE.

 

[shiva]

Twisted? What's twisted about that? In fact, the more I think about it, the more sure I am that you would be the perfect person to run VPF. You've accused me of the same things for 6 years now, and though I have stated time and time again you were wrong, and you should be targeting the actual person who has done everything you accuse me of, you still won't believe me.
What better way for me to prove my honest intentions, then to publically support you as the person I feel is the right person for the right time. It's not a lot of work, you don't have to actually do anything, because you won't have access to any part of the server there, and you would have very restricted access to the admin CP anyway, because only one person is allowed to do that. All you will have to do is just drop by, and answer any questions, and considering how much you are doing just that anyway, it's nothing extra.

Way I look at it, since you will be put in place to actually do something and stop everything you say I am doing, how can it not be such a benefit. You have constantly given out opinions on a whole bunch of matters over the years as well, and you know what, maybe they should be put in place, and the only person to do that is you.

The more I think of it, the more I like the idea, and it isn't that much of a effort, you could do it quite easily. I know you have absolutely no trace of personal ego, and can actually be a bit shy about these things, so it would be very hard for you to even offer, but I strongly believe that with your previous comments, you seem so dedicated to the cause of the community to the point that you put yourself second to everything, but it's not enough. The community needs you PacDude, your the only person with the guts to set everything right

 

[shiva]

Oh, one other thing, and I'm not joking about this either.

I never said one bad thing about Loafer as a person, and he knows that, because if I did, he would call me on it, because he's a supporting member (along with other staff members at VPF as well) on my site, and he would make sure I know. I may disagree about some of his actions as a admin, but then he does the same with me.

But, your words are personally painful, I have a 7 year old son, I know what Loafer has gone through, it is my greatest fear in my life that something should happen to my son like what has happened to Loafer, and I am so happy that his daughter has turned the corner, and is making a recovery.

What you just wrote to try and tie that in to this conversation was pathetic, and it angered me. You liked Loafer because he allowed you to continue to post at VPF, and I seriously doubt anyone else would have after your previous performances. You seem to feel perfectly okay in your comments to me, despite the fact that they are just as much personal attacks againest my character, but don't you dare use a horrendous situation that no one wants to see to to try and justify what you say. That's way over the line, and you know it.

 

[PacDude]

Shiva, only YOU could TWIST something positive I say about Loafer and rightly placing people over pinball and make it about YOU and also make it out to be negative to boot. You're a real piece of work. You've got some fudging nerve of accuming ME of twisting words. Unbelieveable. :evil:

This is what you sais about VPF under The Loafer the last year:

VPF has not been the perfect forum for the last year, they just didn't tell something for the last year, and thought no one knew. If you read that thread, and the other members threads, it's not hard to know who knows, and who doesn't. That's why that thread is so bad, there are some extremely fustrated people there, who are not happy, and it's starting to show.

And you know damn well those comments are speaking about the way VPF was run under The Loafer. And where did I ever say you said anything "personal" about Loafer? Word-twisting again.

I've never said ANYTHING bad about the way Loafer ran VPF in this thread or any other recent thread from the past year. I think he did a pretty good job. Now you want to point the finger at AJ again even though he's not around to have much of anything to do with how VPF is run. He's said he has no time for VPF anymore and so he pays the bills an let's the staff run it. You want to fault him on that? Fine; start your own place. Oh, that's right. You did. So why do you feel the need to keep stirring up trouble at VPF? Your site is no longer on AJ's server. Let go of your anger and just run your site already.

...

Hey Leo, what's up buddy? You've decided to just drop by and start flaming people for the fun of it again? Just like old times, eh? I can't say I'm surprised. If you were on the wrong side of the moderator fence, you would have been banned from VPF before any of us as you can't help but start flaming people.

 

[tiltjlp]

Am I the only one sick of this X-Files conspiracy 'something funny going on behind the scenes' type talk? Either spit out what you've got to say or leave it alone already. Closed door secrets and conspiracies aren't much fun. It's like KC telling EVERYONE he made a new table but isn't going to let anyone but his close buddies have it.

Now Dude, you surprise and shock me. If I recall, wasn't you who started the conspiracy theory thread right here on this forum that linked Black as Randy as Mitchell as BJ as Mark Twain as maybe even Elsie The Cow? So I though you'd enjoy a good who-dunit, even if the names are missing. Just think of the fun you can have filling in the blanks.

Why should I tell you that Leon and Mack1 are one in the same, and that nicolas.b is the one who cracked and released the first Unlocked table? This whole mess has become such a fairey tale that I could start telling you all the FACTS as I know them and 1, no one would care, and 2, who would believe me, and worst of all 3, some of the villians would be transformed into cult heros. Can anyone say KC, and I don't mean Jones. So if any of you are sharp enough to read between the lines, you are now aware that I do know what's going on, huh?

John

John

 

[bob]

John, you might have "known" what happened at one time, but your memory is about as long as my **** :)

Why does AJ keep a forum that he seems to have no interest in? Do you think there's that much profit?

See if you can read between the lines of this :)

The Oficial VPF Staff record of Pacdude's Bannishment and reasoning for doing so... (Obviously this was never posted publicly) "AJ personally banned PacDude, with the support of the entire staff at the time so he can't come back again - case closed, no contest for him. He betrayed the current point of contact/original authors of Rocky & Bullwinkle (DesAngel/CyberDMan) and Dr Who (specifically KidC)."

 

[shiva]

You are wrong Dude, and you know it. You were the one to mention Loafer in this conversation, and then you made sure you mentioned his daughter, this was right after you wrote about me about how I like to twist things. A common tactic with you, a sudden change of the subject, but still using that change to indirectly implicate.
Oh, and you are right, Loafer is also responsible, and that's because he was the forum admin, and that is part of the job when he took it, and he knew that.
And as to me stirring up trouble, no, that's really more your job, and you seem to being doing a real good job of it too. I don't think I'm stirring up trouble, I'm just trying to get people to understand that this situation needs to be fixed now, before it gets anymore out of hand, and if it does, then you will proberly lose VPF.
Before you start up, no, I don't think VPF should be replaced by me, I don't want it, don't want to handle all that, nor do my staff, and I'm pretty sure my supporting members either. None of us want the problems. All I want is what I have right now.
There needs to be some sort of a change, and everyone knows it. I think it could be a lot better, and it should have been better. I've never seen a forum with so much infighting/flames/vendettas in one place, I visit a lot of forums daily, and I don't see this happening in those. This doesn't happen at shivaSite, it doesn't happen at VPO, it doesn't even happen here. You and I argue all the time, but even both of us are arguing differently here than if we are at VPF

 

[tiltjlp]

John, you might have "known" what happened at one time, but your memory is about as long as my **** :)

Why does AJ keep a forum that he seems to have no interest in? Do you think there's that much profit?

See if you can read between the lines of this :)

The Oficial VPF Staff record of Pacdude's Bannishment and reasoning for doing so... (Obviously this was never posted publicly) "AJ personally banned PacDude, with the support of the entire staff at the time so he can't come back again - case closed, no contest for him. He betrayed the current point of contact/original authors of Rocky & Bullwinkle (DesAngel/CyberDMan) and Dr Who (specifically KidC)."

You could be right there Bob. I have noticed my memory shrinking as if I've been taking a series of refreshing cool showers to combat that oppressive heat. Byt I cant believe my memory has gotten as short and your . . . let me guess, hand, neck, mask. Dang, if this was vpf I could simply flame you for using ****.

And the reason he keeps vpf open, in my opinion, is so he has a busy, active, seemingly thriving site to use as bate to lure clinets to his web-hosting business. Vpf simply looks a little better and less political than him marine site. So while some people think AJ is a fool to keep paying the bills at vpf, the site is actually the gateway to a nice profitable business for him. Not a thing wrong with that, I just think he could handle vpf better.

John

 

[Guest]

Hey Leo, what's up buddy? You've decided to just drop by and start flaming people for the fun of it again? Just like old times, eh? I can't say I'm surprised. If you were on the wrong side of the moderator fence, you would have been banned from VPF before any of us as you can't help but start flaming people.

Well here I was having a disscusion with John and Shiva and Bob when some rude punk called Pacdud butts in once more breaking the "accord" we agreed on when you returned to the VPF.

Those sorry losers are the ones who don't take a forum for what it is really. Just a forum.

It doesn't matter what side of the politcal fence you are: POLITICS SUCK and have no place on a forum.

So says the ass to the horse as he talks forum politics on another forum. Face it Leo. You are all about whining, moaning and political style tripe. You lived for it on VPFF and then claimed you were just visiting or something.

Frankly, a good forum pie throwing contest is probably the most excitement that board has seen since 2002.

As for pinball, well some of us keep releasing tables and updates while others just whine about no one talking about pinball. So talk already. I've got tables to build.

So, for the SECOND time you have got in my face when we had agreed to stay out of each others face.
I, however, have not said shit to you unless you have addressed me first.
You break this "accord" and I WILL be all over you like melting butter.
You are a full of shit. You are a sad, pathetic, lonely little hermit hunching over his computer night after night dreaming up new ways of being an asshole and doing VPM tables which I might add is your ONLY redeeming feature. The rest of you reeks like a bucket of dead prawns in the afternoon sun.
Once more I give you the chance to honor the "accord" and shut your face.
I care not for what others may think of what I have said here.
Honor the "accord" and all will be well.

 

[PacDude]

Summary of "intelligent" conversation here from so-called "adults" in their own words:

Shiva: "You are wrong Dude, and you know it."

You know that saying it again and again won't make it true, right? I'm sure you actually believe that, though. I've run into the 'never wrong' types before. Conversation is useless since it's always one-sided and in this case downright paranoid and non-sensical to boot. I can only assume English is your second language since you seem to completely misunderstand everything I say.

Leo: "You are a full of shit. You are a sad, pathetic, lonely little hermit hunching over his computer night after night dreaming up new ways of being an asshole and doing VPM tables which I might add is your ONLY redeeming feature. The rest of you reeks like a bucket of dead prawns in the afternoon sun."

Apparently Leo, you seem to believe you are allowed to go around shitting on people and when someone calls you on it, you then shit on them too. With so much shit flying around, I can only come to one conclusion and that is you are full of shit. Maybe some Depends would help? BTW, that's a pretty good imitation of Shadow. You two should get together and start a side-show.

As for some supposed agreement we have, I'll have to amend that to say you need to stay out of everyone's face. I'm sick of seeing flaming assholes like yourself destroy entire online communities with your pathetic attempts to amuse yourselves by putting down other people.

 

[Guest]

Apparently Leo, you seem to believe you are allowed to go around shitting on people and when someone calls you on it, you then shit on them too. With so much shit flying around, I can only come to one conclusion and that is you are full of shit. Maybe some Depends would help? BTW, that's a pretty good imitation of Shadow. You two should get together and start a side-show.

As for some supposed agreement we have, I'll have to amend that to say you need to stay out of everyone's face. I'm sick of seeing flaming assholes like yourself destroy entire online communities with your pathetic attempts to amuse yourselves by putting down other people.

YOU calling me a flaming asshole is the biggest joke I've ever seen.
If you were to compair the list of people I've had run-ins with and then compair it to the list of people YOU'VE had run-ins with then you would see that the king of flaming assholes is you.
One day you'll take a look at that list and ask yourself: Why it is SOOOO LOOOONNNNGGGG.

Keep telling yourself "I'm an innocent, persecuted little pussy".

 

[tiltjlp]

Apparently Leo, you seem to believe you are allowed to go around shitting on people and when someone calls you on it, you then shit on them too. With so much shit flying around, I can only come to one conclusion and that is you are full of shit. Maybe some Depends would help? BTW, that's a pretty good imitation of Shadow. You two should get together and start a side-show.

As for some supposed agreement we have, I'll have to amend that to say you need to stay out of everyone's face. I'm sick of seeing flaming assholes like yourself destroy entire online communities with your pathetic attempts to amuse yourselves by putting down other people.

YOU calling me a flaming asshole is the biggest joke I've ever seen.
If you were to compair the list of people I've had run-ins with and then compair it to the list of people YOU'VE had run-ins with then you would see that the king of flaming assholes is you.
One day you'll take a look at that list and ask yourself: Why it is SOOOO LOOOONNNNGGGG.

Keep telling yourself "I'm an innocent, persecuted little pussy".

Hey now, I enjoy a nice friendly flame war as much as the next guy, but when you start insulting innocent felines that's going too far. The truth of the matter is we're all full of it to some degree, we just think ours doesn't small as bad as the next fellows. As someone who's gone at it with both the Dud and Leon, in a lot of ways it's pretty much a toss up.

Isn't it nice though that there a place where you can disagree and not have the thread closed or deleted. I find both of you entertaining and amusing most of the time, but the Dude has a wider range Leon. Now if that's a plus or a minor, I'm not really sure.

John

 

[shiva]

Heh, it is entertaining, isn't it. :)

I guess we should leave this alone, it really isn't that fun when PacDude isn't at his best, especially right now.

I don't understand, heh. I think the problem on your end is I understand you more than most people. More than likely, we read the same books

 

[yogiholzer]

Hey people, I give up.

I really want to say a few words. But there is too much to read ( and understand ) before. Here and on the other forums. That is more than I can handle now. What do you all do the whole day ?

Sorry, but there is no post from me about the sítuation. I still can't make clear thought about.