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Twilight Zone

Paolo

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It does look like it may work but I am not sure how this ramp functions.
and neither do I, I don't know the table, nor the rules, and even less for this ramp ...
but in the video, I think I see that it gets stuck or hits something.....
now we have to understand what happens, because I also see that when the ball is fast, it seems to go beyond this obstacle or object, instead when it is slow, it hits something, I don't know what it is, but it is something that makes the robot move

in the demo I insert the same ramp, in the same height, but obviously not in the same position, you can also see it in the video above .... there are only two objects the ramp ... and kicker-ramp, I had no problems that the ball gets stuck, at that point,when the ball is slow ..... did you have any problems in the demo, Bob?

Paolo may need to make a second "kicker ramp" up higher in the next ramp segment ?
there are no problems ..... but you need to understand what happens at that point .....
I don't think another kicker-ramp is the solution ..... because I put it in the center of the current ramp, one should be enough, but as I said above, there is something blocking the ball, and it comes back

I have problems opening this table, it takes a long time to open it, and sometimes I have the crash of fp, it's too heavy...but i will try to wait for it to open,
 

Gimli

Pinball Master
and neither do I, I don't know the table, nor the rules, and even less for this ramp ...
but in the video, I think I see that it gets stuck or hits something.....
now we have to understand what happens, because I also see that when the ball is fast, it seems to go beyond this obstacle or object, instead when it is slow, it hits something, I don't know what it is, but it is something that makes the robot move
Good question
It could be that the kicker ramp orientation fires directly up the table and the ball misses the corner turn of the next segment. So maybe the ramp needs to be sculpted somehow ?

There likely is a way to adjust the ramp kicker model ( In milkshape you could rotate the model
counter clockwise by 10 degrees in the y axis ) and then table editor we can rotate the model clock wise by 10 degrees ...to see if changes the trajectory of the kicker pulse ?

in the demo I insert the same ramp, in the same height, but obviously not in the same position, you can also see it in the video above .... there are only two objects the ramp ... and kicker-ramp, I had no problems that the ball gets stuck, at that point,when the ball is slow ..... did you have any problems in the demo, Bob?
I don't think so
using your "wall trigger" ("Trigger11" in this case) as the guiding hit event that coordinates when the kicker is active helped the demo run smoothly
 
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Gimli

Pinball Master
@wild
There likely is a way to adjust the ramp kicker model ( In milkshape you could rotate the model
counter clockwise by 10 degrees in the y axis ) and then table editor we can rotate the model clock wise by 10 degrees ...to see if changes the trajectory of the kicker pulse ?

I am not sure if you know of another way to change the angle of the kicker apparatus itself
within the model to fire at a different angle ?
 
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Paolo

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Ok....my fault i didn't try it before ...... no problem i just forgot to adjust the height of the ramp guard...

Cattura88.JPG



try this version please
 

Attachments

  • Twilight Zone ULTIMATE 1.02_ramp-assist.fpt
    59.9 MB · Views: 65

Paolo

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
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There likely is a way to adjust the ramp kicker model ( In milkshape you could rotate the model
counter clockwise by 10 degrees in the y axis ) and then table editor we can rotate the model clock wise by 10 degrees ...to see if changes the trajectory of the kicker pulse ?
no Bob .... I made a mistake, I apologize
 

Gimli

Pinball Master
no Bob .... I made a mistake, I apologize
ok I will test later today
I am away from my gaming computer
The other thing I just realized is that because the ramp kicker is in a miniplayfield and it is invisible
we likely can try to rotate it with BAM physics move = True
 

Paolo

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we likely can try to rotate
it is not necessary to rotate the kicker-ramp .... it probably would not work, and you would have other problems ..... this kicker (kicker-ramp) is not round .... but it has the shape of the ramp ... and it is this particularity that makes it works well .... in this ramp-kicker it is not only the center of the model itself that is interested in pushing the ball, like a normal round kicker, but it is the whole ramp that is interested in pushing the ball, I don't know if it is clear what I mean ..... the ball is also pushed from the final part of the ramp

Cattura44.JPG


from point A to point B, the ball is pushed anyway
 

Paolo

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I hope that my mistake of not trying the table more accurately, unfortunately conditioned by the too long it takes (at least for me) to open this table .... to create confusion .... Gimli's video, with that problem that the ball it crashes, it happened due to my mistake(as explained above), the whole system (ramp-assist) works very well, @GeorgeH .....do not pay attention to the problem that arose before ..... I still apologize
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
Interesting stuff guys.

The thing with kickers though.... don't they force the ball into the "center" of the kicker as soon as the kicker is "hit" before the ball gets kicked out in the direction that is set?

I may be wrong there.

For a ramp shaped kicker... will the ball be placed into the center of the kicker first each time it boosts up the ramp? Won't this cause the movement of the ball to jump into place of the center of the kicker when moving on the ramp?

What about a kicker shaped as a wide thin line, (kind of like a trip wire) at the bottom half of the ramp? This way when its hit its not as noticeable? Though if the ramp is wide, then that too would be noticeable if the ball was on the sides of the ramp and then jumped to the center....

Is there a way to change the movement of the ball besides a kicker?

What about a magnet? I'm not sure if they can be directional.... but maybe a magnet can be used in the same way? The magnet force (and time of the magnet being on) changes based on the velocity of the ball?
 

Gimli

Pinball Master
Interesting stuff guys.

The thing with kickers though.... don't they force the ball into the "center" of the kicker as soon as the kicker is "hit" before the ball gets kicked out in the direction that is set?

I may be wrong there.

For a ramp shaped kicker... will the ball be placed into the center of the kicker first each time it boosts up the ramp? Won't this cause the movement of the ball to jump into place of the center of the kicker when moving on the ramp?
Not sure how this kicker model is perceived and process by FP ....it sounds like the entire model is
a "kicker" point so they may be no impetus to center it from FP's perspective it just pulses it straight up. But because the model has collidable boundaries like a normal ramp it should direct the ball based on its shape.
What about a kicker shaped as a wide thin line, (kind of like a trip wire) at the bottom half of the ramp? This way when its hit its not as noticeable? Though if the ramp is wide, then that too would be noticeable if the ball was on the sides of the ramp and then jumped to the center....
Good thoughts Terry.
I hope to test Paolo's fixed ramp tonight to see how it works.

Is there a way to change the movement of the ball besides a kicker?

What about a magnet? I'm not sure if they can be directional.... but maybe a magnet can be used in the same way? The magnet force (and time of the magnet being on) changes based on the velocity of the ball?
Yes that is my next idea if this doesn't work.
Previously the limitations with a magnet was making it dynamically directional ( you could set up
a set static direction ) and making it specific to only one ball (the one going up the ramp).

However with the billiards table Rav provided code to create a magnet pulse that is specific to the actual ball and the balls properties.

In billiards I was able "hit" the ball with a magnet pulse that only impacted the cue ball , with a unique force based on how far back you pull the cue and a direction based on where you aim the cue.

In this case you can set a variable magnet pulse that applies only to the ball going up the ramp
with a force applied based on ball speed and a direction based on the balls trajectory...or whatever...the one additional variable that may be a little tricky is the ramp angle and including that ball elevation in magnet math somehow although maybe this won't be needed ?


If it works the benefits are:
1. Cut and paste template for any table...you just have to add a trigger below the ramp and a timer.
You don't have to make any unique ramp models

cons are:
1. more difficult R+D for us developers ;)
(the kicker ramp method above is extremely simple to code)
 

Paolo

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Ok...here you can see what i say .... this kind of kicker .... ramp shaped, like the one that is in the table ... it is a lot and works better than a round kicker or nano kicker or kicker pulse ... .which in turn requires more than one.......and that must also be rotated

the ball is pushed both from the lower part and from the upper part of the kicker .... at least so I see it and think (I just know that it works) ... in "milkshape" I have the ramp positioned in the center, see photo ... so I don't think the footballer pushes the ball from the center ... or from the point where it is positioned in "milkshape" ..... honestly never tried, or if this could have some other push point

Catturauuu.JPG



Note:this is without bam code


@TerryRed
I will try to answer as soon as I have complete clear ideas about your questions ... you know ... the translation ... but if Gimli has any answers, he is welcome
 
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Gimli

Pinball Master
I think we have a winner ! I am using the version Paolo linked above with his kicker ramp fix.
It looks like the ramp works well now.
You can see from the video that when given an assist now the ball always completes the circuit.
It seems to activate at a speed of around 700 - 1300 only which is pretty good I think. This can be tweaked as needed.
 

Paolo

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@TerryRed
@Gimli
The kicker,is a particular object, I could not find the right words to explain it ...... but a right question would be ???? how does the kicker work?..... GF and Steve .... they know much better than me how a "joint" works...but,it's not easy, you have to configure it.

Cattura55.JPG

all kickers inserted in standard fp work through a "joint" in the red circle.....this triggers the direction,that you must then rotate, based on where you want to kick the ball, and the mechanism of the "Solenoid Pulse" in other words, the kick given to the ball,for a kicker put on the playfield floor,and as you say,Terry, the ball before it is kicked by the kicker must enter the kicker in the middle of the kicker itself,but perhaps with this type of ramp-kicker, this fact cannot be combined......pushes it is, enough.

now as Gimli says, I don't know either I,how this kicker-ramp model is perceived and process by FP...... I just know that it works, there are no "joints", as you can see in the photo I put above, all I know is that it pushes the ball in the direction I expect, now in the form of a ramp, like the one that is present in the table that one has, I am certain that the ball is caught or pushed regardless of any point the ball enters the ramp .....you don't need to tilt, you don't need to rotate, and you don't need to put more(just adjust in height) ... like other kickers used for this purpose ..... like nano kicker, kicker pulse, or invisible kicker, or kicker a triangular shape ..... with this shape, shaped like a ramp .... you solve all these factors..... if we want to do an "assist ramp"

Terry....
a kicker in the form of (a bit like a trip wire), would it be like a nano kicker, kicker pulse, or invisible kicker, or triangular shaped kicker, wouldn't it be an "assist ramp" because if the ball didn't hit it? or would the ball goes to the side?
you suggest a magnte, I have no idea how to use it, I know the magnet attracts the ball, but maybe how ,you two, talk about it, it can also repel, but I have no idea how to use it in the ramp,I groping in the dark......
 
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Paolo

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ok, I see that George, he doesn't seem very interested or involved ..... maybe this discussion of the "ramp-assist" should be moved to his own thread, and leave this thread only his "mod"

@Ike Savage
I put your nick, in @, but I would like to use @staffmember, so as not to always disturb the same person(for example as you, ike ) .... so anyone interested in @ staffmember, could make or fulfill "the request" made, whoever receives first the message or the call.

thanks
 

Gimli

Pinball Master
@TerryRed
@Gimli
The kicker,is a particular object, I could not find the right words to explain it ...... but a right question would be ???? how does the kicker work?..... GF and Steve .... they know much better than me how a "joint" works...but,it's not easy, you have to configure it.

View attachment 16790
all kickers inserted in standard fp work through a "joint" in the red circle.....this triggers the direction,that you must then rotate, based on where you want to kick the ball, and the mechanism of the "Solenoid Pulse" in other words, the kick given to the ball,for a kicker put on the playfield floor,and as you say,Terry, the ball before it is kicked by the kicker must enter the kicker in the middle of the kicker itself,but perhaps with this type of ramp-kicker, this fact cannot be combined......pushes it is, enough.
I think it works very well. But just a question if you rotate the red circle does that change the direction of the kicker pulse ?
now as Gimli says, I don't know either I,how this kicker-ramp model is perceived and process by FP...... I just know that it works, there are no "joints", as you can see in the photo I put above, all I know is that it pushes the ball in the direction I expect, now in the form of a ramp, like the one that is present in the table that one has, I am certain that the ball is caught or pushed regardless of any point the ball enters the ramp .....you don't need to tilt, you don't need to rotate, and you don't need to put more(just adjust in height) ... like other kickers used for this purpose ..... like nano kicker, kicker pulse, or invisible kicker, or kicker a triangular shape ..... with this shape, shaped like a ramp .... you solve all these factors..... if we want to do an "assist ramp"

Terry....
a kicker in the form of (a bit like a trip wire), would it be like a nano kicker, kicker pulse, or invisible kicker, or triangular shaped kicker, wouldn't it be an "assist ramp" because if the ball didn't hit it? or would the ball goes to the side?


you suggest a magnte, I have no idea how to use it, I know the magnet attracts the ball, but maybe how ,you two, talk about it, it can also repel, but I have no idea how to use it in the ramp,I groping in the dark......
yes I can create a magnet pulse that pushes the ball in any direction or force I want. And set it to only effect the ball on the ramp (with multiball you don't want to effect the other balls that are not on the ramp with the magnet )
 

Gimli

Pinball Master
ok, I see that George, he doesn't seem very interested or involved ..... maybe this discussion of the "ramp-assist" should be moved to his own thread, and leave this thread only his "mod"
We will see , he hasn't been around lately. But if he doesn't like it that's ok with me
@Ike Savage
I put your nick, in @, but I would like to use @staffmember, so as not to always disturb the same person(for example as you, ike ) .... so anyone interested in @ staffmember, could make or fulfill "the request" made, whoever receives first the message or the call.

thanks
I send Ike stuff as an FYI to keep him in the loop , because he's kinda "loopy" :trippy: :smile:
 

Paolo

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We will see , he hasn't been around lately. But if he doesn't like it that's ok with me
Idem,for me!
I send Ike stuff as an FYI to keep him in the loop , because he's kinda "loopy"
:shockedalien:
I think it works very well. But just a question if you rotate the red circle does that change the direction of the kicker pulse ?
the "joint"even if you rotate it in its own axis, it would not have any kind of effect, what you can do and move it around the kicker, and in another direction (like see photo) but with the consequence that you will see the ball kicked in that direction, with the result an off-axis kicker, kicking the ball in another direction ... I'm not 100% sure but I can take a test

Cattura6.JPG

but be careful playing with "joints" is problematic, if you don't know how it works ..... I also struggle when I have to modify, moving objects that use "joints", like pop-ups, drop-targets ... .ect ect

yes I can create a magnet pulse that pushes the ball in any direction or force I want. And set it to only effect the ball on the ramp (with multiball you don't want to effect the other balls that are not on the ramp with the magnet )
am impressed, a simple demo to understand and see?
 

Gimli

Pinball Master
Idem,for me!

:shockedalien:

the "joint"even if you rotate it in its own axis, it would not have any kind of effect, what you can do and move it around the kicker, and in another direction (like see photo) but with the consequence that you will see the ball kicked in that direction, with the result an off-axis kicker, kicking the ball in another direction ... I'm not 100% sure but I can take a test
It might be something cool to tweak just to see what it does
View attachment 16791
but be careful playing with "joints" is problematic, if you don't know how it works ..... I also struggle when I have to modify, moving objects that use "joints", like pop-ups, drop-targets ... .ect ect


am impressed, a simple demo to understand and see?
My Billiards table uses this technology to push just the cue ball

 

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
ok, I see that George, he doesn't seem very interested or involved ..... maybe this discussion of the "ramp-assist" should be moved to his own thread, and leave this thread only his "mod"

Sorry guys. I have been preoccupied with something else. I really do appreciate what you guys are doing. The ramp appears to work in the video. I saw Gimli's download of the table and will try it.
 

Gimli

Pinball Master
Sorry guys. I have been preoccupied with something else. I really do appreciate what you guys are doing. The ramp appears to work in the video. I saw Gimli's download of the table and will try it.
Hi George use Paolos updated table under his post above.
Thanks and no worries, personal life is way more important than pinball
 

Paolo

No Bam no Play
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It might be something cool to tweak just to see what it does
so I did some tests, and it was something I should have known,and that I know..... since I have modified several kickers and drops .... the "joint" does not affect or decide the direction of the impulse, it just makes something move in the model, creates a movement so to speak .....see the video .... one kicker is with the "joint", the other no......in fact the kicker-ramp does not have a "joint", but it works the same ..... with the command .... KickerRamp.SolenoidPulse .....


the direction of the impulse, is something that is already inserted in FP, I don't know how .... but it is so .... and it is adjusted, or in the editor see photo, or via script Kicker1.rotation = 330, a example....

Catturarr.JPG


@Gimli
what did you have in mind with this question?
But just a question if you rotate the red circle does that change the direction of the kicker pulse

I can ask you why you asked me, if possible change the direction of the kicker pulse?
 

Gimli

Pinball Master
I can ask you why you asked me, if possible change the direction of the kicker pulse?
It was just a question, no need to do it for Twilght but I was just wondering

I can't read the rotation circled in red above...but lets say it is 45 degrees of clockwise rotation the y axis I believe it would be

Here is a test...I can maybe do it myself

1. Go to milkshape and rotate model in "y' axis counterclockwise 45 degrees and then save and import model into FP
2. Now set the rotation of the kickerramp to 45 degrees clockwise rotation like you did above with red circle

Now the model should look back to its previous orientaion but the kicker might now fire at 45 degree angle :shockedalien:
Crazy idea but it might work
 

Paolo

No Bam no Play
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1. Go to milkshape and rotate model in "y' axis counterclockwise 45 degrees and then save and import model into FP
Cattura44.JPG
Cattura22.JPG


2. Now set the rotation of the kickerramp to 45 degrees clockwise rotation like you did above with red circle
Cattura445.JPG


Now the model should look back to its previous orientaion but the kicker might now fire at 45 degree angle :shockedalien:
Crazy idea but it might work


ok, the kicker is 90 degrees, but actually in editor it's 45 degrees, and kicks the ball at 45 degrees ....

but Bob ..... I didn't understand the meaning of this test? what does this prove? it is obvious that if I change the kicker and rotate it to 45 degrees ..... in FP I see it at 90 degrees, and he kicks my ball at 45 degrees ..... but the purpose?

do you want me to do it with the kicker-ramp?
 
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