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BAM rotationSpeedChart

AnonTet

Pinball Hall of Famer
Site Supporters
@JLou5641

Been away but now I now took a few minutes to look at this. The XML in script is not working because you deleted (or didn't use CTRL+SHIFT+C to copy from BAM menu) the line in bold:

'<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
'<document>

I've tested v3 and it works great when the flipper is up now but at the expense of flipper at rest (down) making the tap pass more difficult. Is it just me?

Tap pass happens anywhere on the flipper like you can see in the video below but now it only works at the tip of the flipper too.

I don't know if it is because of the rotation chart or the omega or my skills so I rather leave it here to take all the doubts out of the way.

 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
Hi Anontet, thanks for the XML tips! :)

For the tap pass, it's the omega charts in BAM menu. Try to reduce the firsts value of Coil Ramp up Curves. It's a trick that is difficult for me on real pinball. So, it's difficulte to evaluate the skill needed to make it. You can surely help to fine tune the charts for Coil Ramp Curve. Don't hesitate to make feedback with new value for this trick. But it must remain difficult to do I think. Probably you need to fine tune the Coil Ramp down with it, to preserve the Post Pass trick, but not sure.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Could you include the Library files with the download somewhere?
I tried out the rotational speed chart on the new shivaFlippers 3.2 version, but I noticed the flippers moved to fast so I couldn't "flick". I can't make heads or tails out of how to do that, so what I am looking for is a flipper that starts very slow at the first angle after a button press, and then gradually gets faster with each new angle.
I can use my timer setup to compensate for people's reflexs/lousy keyboards, but would rather have a more elegant solution.
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
@shiva Do you use the XML Files?
I will re-upload this as i can ;)

@AnonTet , i forgot to tell, i dont make any test yet for EOS script you share and how integrate it. So don't hesitate to make it if you can.
 

AnonTet

Pinball Hall of Famer
Site Supporters
@JLou5641
Like I said before I think it is better to make it easier to make sure it is working and then scale everything down to realistic levels.

That being said it is easier for me (virtually speaking) to tap pass because i just have to touch a button ever so slightly.

When the flipper is up I have to do more. I have to release the button and press it quickly again. Especially with the injury on my right hand this is harder to control.
 

AnonTet

Pinball Hall of Famer
Site Supporters
That's easy. It's just another way of loading physics (on the fly) but I can help with that when the time comes if you want.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I copied in your flipper settings, and it conflicts with my new flipper code. I have my variable coil routine now starting at a key press no matter where the flipper angle is, so I have a tap pass at the flipper at it's upright position, and pretty much anyway else in the flipper angle. I'm gonna start my tests soon, but so far it seems to work okay. Interesting if it works, so better brush up my playing skills.
When you get the library files in, I will redownload it and have a look at what you guys have achieved so far with this.
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
@shiva, here the full package and now with xml in script working. Thanks to @AnonTet

Question to all: Is there a "manual" that explain all BAM physics tweak.. I search to find what is SoftnessCoef and how it work, but i don't find anything and didn't find the difference with or without extra value.

Edit; I think chart can't work with your "trick script".. Because it double it. You may use one or the other independantly i think
 

Attachments

  • Attack From Mars ULTIMATE 1.02-2 Rotational Flippers JLOU v3.zip
    93.4 MB · Views: 15

AnonTet

Pinball Hall of Famer
Site Supporters
@shiva

I quickly tested JLou's rotation chart on another table with v3.1

Code:
{0.0,1.0},{3.9,3.8},{9.5,9.0},{15.1,15.6},{19.8,22.0},{24.6,31.5},{26.3,39.3},{28.0,50.0},{29.1,62.0},{29.5,75.0},{30.0,100.0}[0.0,0.0],[20.5,1.0],[55.3,14.5],[90.0,50.0],[100.0,100.0]

It's works almost too well. Still need to test without the triggers though.

@JLou5641

No and you're not alone. I feel no difference in softness settings either. All other parameters clearly work. I did not test with "absurd" values though.
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
Thanks @AnonTet , if anyone is in contact with Ravarcade and could ask him. I will test you charts in the end of afternoon.. I'm at my workplace, and i need to go back working ;)
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I found it's very "omega" sensitive. Lowering my base omega made it better, but I need to sleep before I can test it further. I didn't notice that much of a difference when I used the chart in my new flipper code, but that may be because of the nature of the new variable coil routine I have now, which may be overriding the flipper chart. I did notice it was a little harder to flick with your chart in, but again the combination with this new shivaFlipper code may be the culprit.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I don't seem to sleep.

Just a video of a small test of the newest version of shivaFlippers using the fpxEngine. This new version has a significate upgrade to the variable coil system, with a better power curve to simulate the coil taking longer to "warm up" and the ability to have the variable coil to become activated no matter where the flipper angle is. This allows for a far weaker shot if the flipper is "flicked" when it's at it's max. swing. (Note: it may be a bit weak, but this is a test after all)There's also additional code from Ravacade and the new rotationSpeedChart from JLou5641 just to see what happens. :)

You will notice the flipper in the full up right or maximum swing is now variable coil as well, so can be very weak. actually, the entire flipper is variable coil.

Sorry for the very poor playing. It's a lot harder to do when you are trying to show it off than if you just play it, but you all should get the idea. It's very late here, so hammers instead of fingers on the keyboard. :)

I was finally able to do a tap pass around 1.10 on the video. Too slow just about everything else...
 
Last edited:

AnonTet

Pinball Hall of Famer
Site Supporters
You have a beta tester here if you want ;)

/edit
Well, just watched the video. Looks good and I really hope you can make release it sooner than later.
 
Last edited:

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
@shiva, here the full package and now with xml in script working. Thanks to @AnonTet

Question to all: Is there a "manual" that explain all BAM physics tweak.. I search to find what is SoftnessCoef and how it work, but i don't find anything and didn't find the difference with or without extra value.

Edit; I think chart can't work with your "trick script".. Because it double it. You may use one or the other independantly i think
I tried this latest version. I couldn't tell much with so much bounce so I changed it to make it less. After I did that, I could tell that the aiming was off when making shots from the base of the flipper. I tried different things but it didn't help. Increasing the flipper swing seemed to help but not enough.

I decided to try my idea of adding the code from Twilight Zone and it seems to help. The values in the XML seem a little odd but it is playable. I attached a copy.
 

Attachments

  • ```Attack From Mars ULTIMATE 1.02-2 Rotational Flippers George v3.fpt
    50.4 MB · Views: 8

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
You have a beta tester here if you want ;)

/edit
Well, just watched the video. Looks good and I really hope you can make release it sooner than later.
Still have a bit to do, couple things to look at and improve. I was thinking just releasing it with fpxEngine 1.41, and seeing what people think after playing around with it (and I know you all will) but if 1.41 is looking to be delayed for too long, I will drop a PM
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
Hi @GeorgeH, please change Omega value on my dynamic flipper formula at line 331 to 343 instead of replaced it with you shivas' formula. It's do the same but easier customisable. Your formulas make jump. I made curves with your formula and one with my mine, see the difference with dynamic flipper linear interpolation in formula ( interpolation that exist on the orignal made by ravarcade ):
1622630156994.png

To have the same scale on curves, i added few point on the begining of your charts, and deleted few points at the end. But it's not change the result. I make the same curves with my fomula, so try this value with:

Code:
    const Omega1  = 60
    const Omega2  = 20
    const Omega3  = 20
    const Omega4  = 23
    const Omega5  = 32
    const Omega6  = 36.2
    const Omega7  = 36.2
    const Omega8  = 39
    const Omega9  = 40
    const Omega10 = 40
    const Omega11 = 34.4
    const Omega12 = 30
    const Omega13 = 20

It's normal you can't make post pass with this value.. They are to week on the base. You can't use them without other shiva's script. You need to keep the same logic as the original Ravarcade Dynamic Flipper formulas: More Omega on the base, less on the tip.

For the boucing, I remember you i made option. You have 3 option: 0 = to use native rubber material ( set by dafault in my script ), 1 = flipper dynamic boucing method, and 3 = custom material properties. So try to use and tweak boucing method instead of material flipper bats properties.

Also, to have good aiming, the whole physics friction need to be rework between PF and Rubber. Fp seems to use real coef friction. And for now on all table I see they are wrong.

I joint the Excel file to make your curves.. Just enter your value and you will see your curve in live:

1622631349487.png


Greatings,
JLou
 

Attachments

  • courbe.zip
    11.9 KB · Views: 12
Last edited:

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
The only reason I tried the TZ code is to improve the aiming. You can create any curve that you want. There is something about your version of the code that produces poor aiming. I changed the curve to have high strength at the base. I attached the Excel file and a copy of the revised table. The way you use the Excel file is to enter the values for the curve at the top of the chart. Then you can copy the code for the left flipper at the bottom of the chart and paste it into the script. Then copy and paste the same code for the right flipper and then replace "Left" with "right". The choice of curves is up to you.
 

Attachments

  • Attack From Mars ULTIMATE 1.02-2 Rotational Flippers JLOU v3.zip
    47.9 MB · Views: 15

AnonTet

Pinball Hall of Famer
Site Supporters
JLou5641 said:
Fp seems to use real coef friction

Totally agree with this. I recall looking for rubber information regarding measurements. I even read some physics thesis but... It's too much. I could extrapolate some values though. Actually, I think this is true for any *Mat in the physics.

Since yesterday I got back at this. I think i'll look at shivaflippers 1st. Too much looking at both at the same time.
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
@AnonTet , i began to find some real value for friction.. For the PF, default value is great ( this is the value which make me think it use real friction coefficient ). I have the real for metal metal.

@GeorgeH , very interesting, so, if the "formulas", one with extrapolation and one without extrapolation not working the same, or the extrapolation make this odd, this could be signifying that Dynamic Flipper Script with 2 points is odd since the begining.... Very interessting. I will test your version in few hours.
Also, It could be cool to make test, one whit orignal Dynamic Flipper script with classic 2 points ( base and tip ), and one with "range" point like you make, without extrapolation with the same value at base and tip and a "straight curve" than classics Dymanic Flipper Script , to see the difference.
 

AnonTet

Pinball Hall of Famer
Site Supporters
Glad you bring "metal on metal" up. I recall reading something about the *Mat settings in the newton dynamics wiki (FP physics engine) and as far as I know this is for materials pairs, i.e., metal on metal, wood on wood and so one and so forth so I think it is ok to setup materials with this in mind.
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
@GeorgeH . Ok, This is not the formulas the problem. I find that by testing your copy with my values, and my copy with yours value, and i find a differrence without understanding why.. And i finally find you have difference because you make your test with 52° of swing and me 48 ;) like real, and 48° is the objectiv.
52° is to much and made "odd" physics with "bouce method". Also, you use the bounce method with little bouncing which drasticaly reduce shoot angle aiming. So, I test with the same bounce method like you, shoot angle is more close. Also, i have test your copy with my setting ( more omega and native boucing ), and there is no difference betwenn your formula and mine. Last point, I think your OMEGA value are too week for this type of pinball, and boucing too, it play like an old pinball and AFM is a "fast" pinball and need to be concetrate to control the ball. But it's my opinion ;)

I upload my version with your bounce setting.

Edit: I disable the ball speed limiter

@AnonTet, for the friction coeff i have that:

PF: 0.02
Steel on stell: 0.2 for static / 0.15 for dynamic
Steel on coated wood: somewhere between 0.2 and 0.4 for dynamic
Rubber: could be 0.5 to 0.8 for dynamic
Steel: 0.15 for static / 0.1 for Dynamic
 

Attachments

  • Attack From Mars ULTIMATE 1.02-2 Rotational Flippers JLOU v3c.fpt
    50.4 MB · Views: 14
Last edited:

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
The aiming is better on this version but the aiming is still off and the physics from the XML aren't right.
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
I change anything. it's the same physics as your copy. I just set my values with bouncing you use. I test it with your formula version and my omega value, i see no difference for physics and aimshot between your formula and mine. The only différence could be the ball speed limite which could be ineffective with your omega which are weaker than mine.. Ball speed limit can change aimshot
 
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