BAM rotationSpeedChart

[Isaac Sauvage]

I am not sure that level of detail is needed.

Agree that level of detail isn't necessarily needed, but a better understanding of how far FP's physics has come certainly is. And as the de-facto maintainer of the WP-FP entry, I can't say I really have that understanding.

Thanks JLou, Paolo and George for the explanations. You've headed me in the right direction.

 

[Paolo]

This defines the physical characteristics of all the objects on a table. It controls strength, elasticity, friction and a few other things.

your evaluation is very low on this ..... did did you want to economize yourself?

Everyone seems to forget that the strength of many objects on the table is set in the FP editor

I'm not one of them George.....until recently I did not use xml, as you think I did before.

I am not sure that level of detail is needed.

@Isaac Sauvage

it's a double-edged sword, I agree with George, as soon as someone reads these details, and does not understand anything, of what they read, they will discard it for sure .... as opposed who understand something could to say .... "damn" I have to do all this ?

 

[Paolo]

but a better understanding of how far FP's physics has come certainly is

in fact you should find a middle ground, not to overdo/exaggerate the details, and not to overdo/exaggerate it with too many explanations

 

[Paolo]

It's that @GeorgeH, Rotation speed chart is base on omega you set. so it's a percentage of the full Omega. If you have omega 45, at 50% in the curve at 15ms for an ex you will have 22.5

in fact in that pinna or ailette or fin or flipper or bats....... I have an omega at 55, to have more speed in chart,and I had to put the force to the maximum with hard elasticity in editor for to complete that absurd ramp, not to mention that I modified in model, fin bats longer than normal I put the swing -25, the angle 155, and position it very well, to take or hit that ramp

 

[Paolo]

lool.. bats is "fin" for you.. Coil its the electromecanical solenoid wich activate the flipper bats.

bats is fin?????? and then you should only write flipper in English,without bats, which doesn't help for translators

Coil is the RightFlipper.SolenoidOn? and couldn't you use this writing? in Fp there is no coil object ....but the SolenoidOn/off
excuse my ignorance of technical terms

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

@Isaac Sauvage

it's a double-edged sword, I agree with George, as soon as someone reads these details, and does not understand anything, of what they read, they will discard it for sure .... as opposed who understand something could to say .... "damn" I have to do all this ?

No, I never said I was going to bore people with unnecessary details.

My job (as with lots of things), is to get to the core of an issue, properly understand it, then simplify the whole thing for others. Kinda like Shiva is so good at. It's also part of the spirit of well-written encyclopedia entries, and Wikipedia is very much an encyclopedia (plus more).

There, see how I broke things down for you?

 

[Paolo]

Here the video,with your DF @JLou5641 I show you the code inside the script,to let you know that I am using your DF

Then I play, I do some manual movement of the ball, to show you that I want to hit the ball in the tip of the flipper, to send the ball in that lane im top left, but it seems that many times the ball goes to the center,and I can't take that lane.....
in fact this was one of my many questions for you, this DF has a tendency to send the ball towards the center

View attachment DF (1).mp4

 

[Paolo]

No, I never said I was going to bore people with unnecessary details.

Nico...but where do you see that I told you, that you get bored the people????

There, see how I broke things down for you?

which means I don't understand

 

[Paolo]

it's a double-edged sword, I agree with George, as soon as someone reads these details, and does not understand anything, of what they read, they will discard it for sure .... as opposed who understand something could to say .... "damn" I have to do all this ?

@Isaac Sauvage

so if you all do not understand what I am writing to you, I invite you all to tell me, without adding things that I have not said ... .. mine is just an opinion .... where do you see written that I said that you bore people?
in fact I said, since it is something that has to be entered on WP, I simply suggested not to give too many details, to avoid that many would not understand what they are reading ..... if I start reading details on physics ..... that even I struggle to understand what you think others will do? will they continue reading? if on the contrary, a guy who has just started using FP, goes to read that to make the ringmaster work it takes someone like gimli to animate the object ..... what do you think he will do?

If you or anyone else have understood badly, I repeat you all have not understood what I am writing , PLEASE at least tell me .... if anyone begin to tell me things that I have not said, I will also leave this site TOO

these are just suggestions opinions ..... where do you see written that I said that you bore people?

according to you with my sentence in quotes, I meant that you bore people?

but come on.....damn!!!!

ps: for me you can write on WP, whatever you want.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

How language issues can lead to misunderstandings.

https://pinballnirvana.com/forums/threads/bam-rotationspeedchart.20679/post-131986 (BAM rotationSpeedChart) @Paolo, No mate, I'd say it's moreso that your English still needs lots of work, assuming your intention is to converse in fairly detailed matters such as these in English. Indeed, I...

pinballnirvana.com

 

[Paolo]

uuuh.. eos it's one of the most important thing in Pinball... Search for what it is and how it affect gamep

uuuh.. eos è una delle cose più importanti in Pinball... Cerca cos'è e come influenza il gameplay

Ok questo eos è qualcosa che questo video suggerisce?
Ok,this eos is something this video suggests?

if there we find how to make a good and realistic eos system, no more Dynamic Flipper neede

se troviamo come creare un sistema eos buono e realistico, non è più necessario Dynamic Flipper

Davvero? e per trovarlo? cosa ci vorrebbe?
Really????and to find it? what would it take?

Presumo che anche tu non l'abbia trovato?quindi con IL tuo DF, provi ad avvicinarti a questo EOS?
e le Rotation Charts, che ruolo hanno in tutto questo?
I assume you haven't found it too?? so with your DF, you try to get closer to this EOS?
and the Rotation Charts,What a role have in all this ?

 

[Paolo]

Bene ragazzi,sono io Paolo,che a volte non capisce una "mazza" (per non dire una brutta parolaccia,)
di codici matematici, o codici di Bam.....e spesso mi si dice anche che fraindento le cose,e di consequenza subito vado in incandescenza,come per dire; mi arrabbio,o che mi offendo,o che vado in autosalvaggio di me stesso, e quindi fraintendo le parole

Per favore,ditemi se ho frainteso questo discorso QUI datemi un vostro parere,perchè da questo dipende se è meglio tagliare la corda da PN,o restare.

Ad alcuni di voi e anche all'utente interessato,ho inviato una chiamata@,riceverete una notifica,per favore rispondetemi,non mi ignorate,è importante per me.

Grazie mille

 

[GeorgeH]

It's that @GeorgeH, Rotation speed chart is base on omega you set. so it's a percentage of the full Omega. If you have omega 45, at 50% in the curve at 15ms for an ex you will have 22.5

..So I presume it uses a percentage of the omega that we define in the dynamic flippers. It seems like this could get rather complex because the omega on the flippers ramps between 2 values.

 

[GeorgeH]

your evaluation is very low on this ..... did did you want to economize yourself?

I simplified it so Nic would understand.

I'm not one of them George.....until recently I did not use xml, as you think I did before.

I should have said that the strength sliders are not discussed much. I am sure all the guys that edit or create new tables know the strength sliders are there.

it's a double-edged sword, I agree with George, as soon as someone reads these details, and does not understand anything, of what they read, they will discard it for sure .... as opposed who understand something could to say .... "damn" I have to do all this ?

I could probably write something that Nic could use to share how far the development of physics has come without getting too detailed.

 

[Paolo]

it's a double-edged sword, I agree with George, as soon as someone reads these details, and does not understand anything, of what they read, they will discard it for sure .... as opposed who understand something could to say .... "damn" I have to do all this ?

I could probably write something that Nic could use to share how far the development of physics has come without getting too detailed.

sembra che tu abbia capito cosa volevo dire
you seem to have understood what I meant

 

[Paolo]

@JLou5641

Ok,Lou.....credo di avere tutto chiaro in mente,le tue spiegazioni sono state davvero utili,per avere un altro modo per raggiungere un gameplay ottimale.

le pinne bats,(flippers bats) devono essere configurati,secondo la tua teoria e in base a un gameplay reale, cosi:
1) swing tra 48/52,dipende dal tavolo williamw stern, e cosi via
2) bisogna comprendere la differenza tra: palla che scivola sulle flippers bats,o che viene calciata
3) che forse,dico forse, fino a ora noi abbiamo usato un angolo falso sui flippers bats per imbrogliare la mira,ma non so quale angolo sia corretto da potere inserire
4) bisogna capire che l'omega non và impostato in base alla distanza ma che in reatà dipende dal tempo,che l'omega è in relazione o in coppia con la bobina (coil)e non la forza nel punto di contatto,cioè la forza che dipende dalle regole naturali, P=CxOmega ( in francese... P=Puissance/Force C=Course/Longueur Omega=Omega/Couple )
5) per un migliore gameplay,solo i grafici "Dynamic Flipper + Rotation" possono fare in modo che la punta dei flippers bats sia in modo realistico
6) bisogna sapere usare e comfigurare i grafici di rotazione,che Rav,ha fornito e spiegato ,ma che nessuno quasi a mai usato prima
7) per ultimo,avere la fortuna di travare e avere in FP, il sistema EOS, questo sistema và compreso bene secondo me

dimmi per favore se è tutto chiaro per te quello che scritto,mentre fai la traduzione,e specialmente se ho elencato su tutti questi 7punti,tutto quello che mi hai spiegato ok?

se hai problemi di traduzioni,dimmelo che la faccio io

mille grazie

ps:aspetto la tua valutazione sul mio tavolo

 

[JLou5641]

Here the video,with your DF @JLou5641 I show you the code inside the script,to let you know that I am using your DF

Then I play, I do some manual movement of the ball, to show you that I want to hit the ball in the tip of the flipper, to send the ball in that lane im top left, but it seems that many times the ball goes to the center,and I can't take that lane.....
in fact this was one of my many questions for you, this DF has a tendency to send the ball towards the center

View attachment 21764

Hi @Paolo, it's only a problem to find the good value for omega and charts. Can you send me your table in private. I will search for it and tell you the procedure how to find the good value and charts... This is why i need to make a tuto . Also, i need to simplify my code.

uuuh.. eos è una delle cose più importanti in Pinball... Cerca cos'è e come influenza il gameplay

Ok questo eos è qualcosa che questo video suggerisce?
Ok,this eos is something this video suggests?

se troviamo come creare un sistema eos buono e realistico, non è più necessario Dynamic Flipper

Davvero? e per trovarlo? cosa ci vorrebbe?
Really????and to find it? what would it take?

Presumo che anche tu non l'abbia trovato?quindi con IL tuo DF, provi ad avvicinarti a questo EOS?
e le Rotation Charts, che ruolo hanno in tutto questo?
I assume you haven't found it too?? so with your DF, you try to get closer to this EOS?
and the Rotation Charts,What a role have in all this ?

Yes, i keep DF only to simulate the EOS to prevent big "kick" on the tip of flipper, and make possible tip pass. If we can find a way to make a realistic eos, DF will not necessary anymore

..So I presume it uses a percentage of the omega that we define in the dynamic flippers. It seems like this could get rather complex because the omega on the flippers ramps between 2 values.

@GeorgeH , no it's simple.. Every things in the world move by acceleration... Nothing move like 0 to 100km/h in 0s for ex. Rotation charts make flipper have their real acceleration physics, and it's the most important things.. Until today every body don't use it, and use more close swing angle ( so false angle than in real ) to compensate aiming... If you play a Gottlieb Sys 3 Pinball like Stargate, you will see it play more like you make your table, it play more like ON/OFF flipper, because on Gottlieb SYS 3 pinball, Flipper have more more power than other brand, and consequentely, have close swing angle, and also, like in FP, ball could be easier to control ( but in fact no, because balls are very very fast loool, so those pinball are very hard ), and trick like livecatch, tip pass, tap pass are near impossible, at least, very very very difficult

@JLou5641

Ok,Lou.....credo di avere tutto chiaro in mente,le tue spiegazioni sono state davvero utili,per avere un altro modo per raggiungere un gameplay ottimale.

le pinne bats,(flippers bats) devono essere configurati,secondo la tua teoria e in base a un gameplay reale, cosi:
1) swing tra 48/52,dipende dal tavolo williamw stern, e cosi via
2) bisogna comprendere la differenza tra: palla che scivola sulle flippers bats,o che viene calciata
3) che forse,dico forse, fino a ora noi abbiamo usato un angolo falso sui flippers bats per imbrogliare la mira,ma non so quale angolo sia corretto da potere inserire
4) bisogna capire che l'omega non và impostato in base alla distanza ma che in reatà dipende dal tempo,che l'omega è in relazione o in coppia con la bobina (coil)e non la forza nel punto di contatto,cioè la forza che dipende dalle regole naturali, P=CxOmega ( in francese... P=Puissance/Force C=Course/Longueur Omega=Omega/Couple )
5) per un migliore gameplay,solo i grafici "Dynamic Flipper + Rotation" possono fare in modo che la punta dei flippers bats sia in modo realistico
6) bisogna sapere usare e comfigurare i grafici di rotazione,che Rav,ha fornito e spiegato ,ma che nessuno quasi a mai usato prima
7) per ultimo,avere la fortuna di travare e avere in FP, il sistema EOS, questo sistema và compreso bene secondo me

dimmi per favore se è tutto chiaro per te quello che scritto,mentre fai la traduzione,e specialmente se ho elencato su tutti questi 7punti,tutto quello che mi hai spiegato ok?

se hai problemi di traduzioni,dimmelo che la faccio io

mille grazie

ps:aspetto la tua valutazione sul mio tavolo

It's exactly that paolo!!!

Also @Paolo, do you have this screen in BAM menu? It's where you can configure charts easily and see how much time and power it give to you flipper:



I will busy this week end, so i will not free to answer as i want. Please send me your table, i will check it and explain to you on Monday.
But i will keep an eye on topic in the weekend

 

[GeorgeH]

View attachment 21782

I noticed your latest rotation speed chart goes up to 160% but this one does not appear to go that high. Is the 160% a mistake? If not a mistake, it seems odd it would go that high.

 

[JLou5641]

No, it's not a mistake. It's to keep acceleration and good aimong for upper target on PF.. it's one thing i need to explain. changing this point change aiming angle ( more to close the aiming, less to open the aiming.. ). The value depend of the Omega we set and pf configuration. I will explain the how to find it later

 

[Paolo]

scusate cosa c'è in questo,View attachment 21782 che non riesco ad aprie?
sorry what's in this, that I can't open?

Hi @Paolo, it's only a problem to find the good value for omega and charts. Can you send me your table in private. I will search for it and tell you the procedure how to find the good value and charts... This is why i need to make a tuto . Also, i need to simplify my code.

Perfetto,un codice più semplificato e senz'altro molto piu facile da gestire.Grazie
Perfect, a more simplified code and certainly much easier to manage.Thanks

Yes, i keep DF only to simulate the EOS to prevent big "kick" on the tip of flipper, and make possible tip pass. If we can find a way to make a realistic eos, DF will not necessary anymore

Ok,ma una domanda nasce spontanea,come lo troviamo? qualcuno dovrebbe realizzarlo? cosa bisognerebbe fare?si potrebbe realizzarlo con un calcolo matematico? o cosa?
Ok, but a question arises, how do we find it? should anyone make it happen? what should be done? could it be accomplished with a mathematical calculation? or what?

l'eos è il meccanismo del solonoide della bobina giusto ok.?......che in FP,è "Right/LeftFlipper.SolenoidOn/Off".....via pulsante or keys
quindi il pulsante che noi premiamo rappresenterebbe la bobina,giusto......ora come possiamo modificare la bobina,cioè il pulsante? tramite una tastiera particolare?è davvero necessario? cioè la tastiera?
noi come codice abbiamo il "Right/LeftFlipper.SolenoidOn/Off".quindi dovremmo modificare questo? giusto
quindi,(una mia teoria assurda) creare un solenoid particolare tramite codice,che potrebbe essere configurato con dei timer,ad esempio.....che ne pensi?

EOS is the solonoid mechanism of the coil.right ok .?.....that in fp, it is "Right/LeftFlipper.SolenoidOn/Off" ..... via button or keys
So the button we press would represent the coil, right ...... now how can we change the coil, i.e. the button? through a particular keyboard? Is this really necessary? i.e. the keyboard?
We as a code we have the "Right/LeftFlipper.SolenoidOn/Off".so should we change this? right
create(one of my absurd theory) a particular solenoid via code, which could be configured with timers, for example,what do you think about it?

It's exactly that paolo!!!

Also @Paolo, do you have this screen in BAM menu? It's where you can configure charts easily and see how much time and power it give to you flipper:

si certo,ma non ci ho capito niente,ma cosa dovrei fare...forse un tutorial,sarebbe di aiuto,anche perchè ci deve essere inserito un DF,nello script,se uno fà la prova con un nuovo tavolo FP,non vede i grafici in idx:
yes of course, but I didn't understand anything, but what should I do ... maybe a tutorial would help,also because there must be inserted a DF, in the script, if one makes the test with a new FP table, it does not see the graphs in idx:

I will busy this week end, so i will not free to answer as i want. Please send me your table, i will check it and explain to you on Monday.
But i will keep an eye on topic in the weekend

ok,now or maybe after dinner you sent you,Many Thanks


PLEASE,tell me if Italian and understandable as English, or English is better.

 

[Paolo]

Hi @Paolo, it's only a problem to find the good value for omega and charts. Can you send me your table in private. I will search for it and tell you the procedure how to find the good value and charts... This is why i need to make a tuto . Also, i need to simplify my code.

yes, after dinner I send it to you, I am very curious, and attracted to your theory (work),
I just hope to be able to understand and learn.

 

[GeorgeH]

PLEASE,tell me if Italian and understandable as English, or English is better.

It works OK for me. It would be easier if you saved the English so it has a different appearance as the Italian, like bold, italic or different color.

 

[Paolo]

It works OK for me. It would be easier if you saved the English so it has a different appearance as the Italian, like bold, italic or different color.

Fatto!
Una domanda, hai letto l'inglese? o hai tradotto l'italiano?
perché per me è la stessa cosa, la traduzione inglese è la stessa cosa che scrivo in italiano

Done!
A question, did you read English?or have you translated Italian?
because for me it is the same thing, English translation is the same as what I write in Italian

Forse così imparate qualche parola in Italiano,cosi se venite in Italia per le vostre vacanze,sapete dire qualcosa,tipo spaghetti,pasta al forno,pollo arrosto,pesce fritto.

Maybe so learn a few words in Italian, so if you all come to Italy for your holidays, you know how to say something, like spaghetti, baked pasta, roast chicken, fried fish.

 

[GeorgeH]

Fatto!
Una domanda, hai letto l'inglese? o hai tradotto l'italiano?
perché per me è la stessa cosa, la traduzione inglese è la stessa cosa che scrivo in italiano

Done!
A question, did you read English?or have you translated Italian?
because for me it is the same thing, English translation is the same as what I write in Italian

Forse così imparate qualche parola in Italiano,cosi se venite in Italia per le vostre vacanze,sapete dire qualcosa,tipo spaghetti,pasta al forno,pollo arrosto,pesce fritto.

Maybe so learn a few words in Italian, so if you all come to Italy for your holidays, you know how to say something, like spaghetti, baked pasta, roast chicken, fried fish.

I just read the English. I took Spanish in high school. I still remember a few words of it. Unfortunately, I can't eat pasta. Too many carbs.

 

[Paolo]

When you talked about speed, your wrong.. Swing is not the speed... it's the travel of the bats... Speed is due to Omega x time ( this is why Rotation charts are awesome ).

@JLou5641
ok, you are right "Lou" in this sense, Rav he explained to me that it is impossible to have only swing speed, is as I have always said too, that is speed and force are closely linked, as space-time in astrological terms.
so omega is the keystone......more omega= more speed, and obviously more strength.

This why Rotation chart is important, because it's the coil ramp up ( acceleration of flipper bats ) who made great accuracy

just to understand me even better, please, then the Rotation chart,(maybe) emulate the "eos" of the coil?
or only ( acceleration of flipper bats )?