BAM rotationSpeedChart

[JLou5641]

@Isaac Sauvage There is no difference beetween Rotation Charts, Dynamic Flipper, and xml document. They work together to make good phycs...

Shiva use another method ( scripted ) to make flipper trick and flipper bat accuracy and other.. So it's not the same method as i search here.

With @AnonTet , we begun to work on physics by searching and using real value ( real friction factor, real mass, real gravity etc etc), all physics setting are store in the "xml"

Dynamic Flipper its just a Prehit routine which give the possibilty to use différent omega along the flipper bats, to make better accurate... But it's not use as it should be, and in fact, it should be not necessary if we could have an eos.

Rotation speed chart is what a describe some times just before, and it also store in xml

 

[Paolo]

• DynamicFlippers
• XML physics documents
• anything else relevant?

I can talk about these ...... and about the third point ........ I add the equilibrium or balance

 

[JLou5641]

in fact my intelligence, not mathematics, suggests me .... that if I give a kick, to 2 balls with the same strength, but with different speeds, what do I get? For me a better aim, and I do goals !!!!!!!

always my intelligence suggests that if I have a code so xbam.setswingspeedflipper1, x, x, x ..... I get that result,goals !!!!!!!
I Farnetic? maybe not.

you not have the good way... don't make mistake beetween ball which fall down from fp to flipper bats( it's a kick ), and the ball rolling on flipper bats ( it's a catapult )... making coil on/off make flipper bats as a kick... so Bad accurate and power in this case

 

[Paolo]

But it's not use as it should be, and in fact, it should be not necessary if we could have an eos.

I don't know what this is "eos"........But why? it doesn't work as it should? ...... in what sense should they work? For years we used it, with excellent results ......... because now it doesn't work as it should?

 

[Paolo]

you not have the good way

I understand that I am not the right person for you, to discuss and understand these mathematical techniques regarding the DF ...... but I am one that builds tables, and on this site there are few (a pair) others do Mods ......... so to learn I have to ask questions and formulate theories even absurd........also in this way I have devised functions, which you see now in Bam, which Rav then realized

I tried your new df, and inserted it to my table if you go to page 121, see it here Including your code of rotationSpeedChar

in fact I told you that I have many questions, just because I noticed that it doesn't work like the standard DF I usually use, and I noticed that even if I hit the ball in the tip of the flipper, after cradling the ball, you know where the ball goes ?

I'll make a video and you show it, and then I send you the table, and tell me what it is wrong

I don't doubt your skills in this context, indeed I admire and appreciate, like your connazional, and I bow to your work,but I just want to learn.

 

[JLou5641]

I don't know what this is "eos"........But why? it doesn't work as it should? ...... in what sense should they work? For years we used it, with excellent results ......... because now it doesn't work as it should?

uuuh.. eos it's one of the most important thing in Pinball... Search for what it is and how it affect gameplay, trick, aiming..

why it doesn't work as it should ? because nobody never use what @ravarcade made and explain with the Rotation Charts, so everybody "hack aiming" by use different omega alongside the flipper bats... and also.. you can't make tricks that pinball offer to you.. Rotation chart do all of that without any "hack or cheat", except for tip trick and live catch due to the lack of eos.. if there we find how to make a good and realistic eos system, no more Dynamic Flipper needed ( today, only Dynamic Flipper + Rotation Charts can make realistic tip pass ). So as i say, everybody set an Omega value depend from a distance (length of flipper bats ), meanwhile Omega in real, it depend from time... Omega is the torq of coil... not the strengt at the contact point... the strengt depending from natural rules, P=CxOmega ( in French... P=Puissance/Force C=Course/Longueur Omega=Omega/Couple )

 

[JLou5641]

I understand that I am not the right person for you, to discuss and understand these mathematical techniques regarding the DF ...... but I am one that builds tables, and on this site there are few (a pair) others do Mods ......... so to learn I have to ask questions and formulate theories even absurd........also in this way I have devised functions, which you see now in Bam, which Rav then realized

I tried your new df, and inserted it to my table if you go to page 121, see it here Including your code of rotationSpeedChar

in fact I told you that I have many questions, just because I noticed that it doesn't work like the standard DF I usually use, and I noticed that even if I hit the ball in the tip of the pinballer, after cradling the ball, you know where the ball goes ?

I'll make a video and you show it, and then I send you the table, and tell me what it is wrong

I don't doubt your skills in this context, indeed I admire and appreciate, like your connazional, and I bow to your work,but I just want to learn.

i just explain my method and why... Sorry to be an engeener and real pinball player.
I think FP has very good tools... So if you are offence... Sorry for you.. .It's not absurde theory.. It's real fact and @ravarcade put in bam real things that nobody use..

 

[Paolo]

don't make mistake beetween ball which fall down from fp to flipper bats( it's a kick ), and the ball rolling on flipper bats ( it's a catapult ).

Perfect, I understand the difference ....... In fact, for Doctor Who, I don't want to slide(or fall down) the ballt in he ball Flipper Bats, I want to kick it

 

[JLou5641]

when you kick the ball, Rotation chart coil don't make big difference with on/off coil for aiming

 

[JLou5641]

i just explain my method and why... Sorry to be an engeener and real pinball player.
I think FP has very good tools... So if you are offence... Sorry for you.. .It's not absurde theory.. It's real fact and @ravarcade put in bam real things that nobody use..

sorry @Paolo , Barrier language make mistaken interpretation

I'll wait for your video

 

[JLou5641]

i forgott to mention, everybody already use false angle for flipper bats to cheat the aim..
With rotation charts, you can now use real angle for flipper bats with good aiming.

 

[Paolo]

i just explain my method and why... Sorry to be an engeener and real pinball player.
I think FP has very good tools... So if you are offence... Sorry for you.. .It's not absurde theory.. It's real fact and @ravarcade put in bam real things that nobody use..

but why are you sorry? I'm not offended, on the contrary I'm happy that you explain your theories to me

I just wanted to encourage you not to give up on me, that I am very limited in these mathematical things ....... and I struggle to understand them, but if I understand them you can rest assured that I can surprise you.
also as a table builder i like to have optimal gameplay for a FP tables i am the first player i would like to play as a real pinball player.

the first was smoke, of which I have inserted all his thread here in pn ....... and I rely on his intuitions about physics, in fact I use XMLof him, with some changes to find my balance between the objects on my table

in fact my last three tables work well ..... sure it doesn't have your theories inserted as DF ........ but we can improve

 

[JLou5641]

yes yes... i make a mistaken interpretation due to barrier language

 

[Paolo]

when you kick the ball, Rotation chart coil don't make big difference with on/off coil for aiming

no you say?
So if we increase the speed of the swing, I don't improve the aim?
then you have to explain this that you see now in the video, how do you interpret it?
how do i do in your opinion? to hit the ramp (ramp absurd to me in this table) @GeorgeH forgiving me if I'm putting it here.
View attachment ramp2.mp4


when I say increase the swing speed I mean this



EDIT:
PS: then I'll explain the technical data of that fin(flipper)

 

[Paolo]

I'll wait for your video

time to do it and then insert it

 

[Paolo]

i forgott to mention, everybody already use false angle for flipper bats to cheat the aim..
With rotation charts, you can now use real angle for flipper bats with good aiming.

so we played until now with false angle for flipper bats?
what do you mean by false? maybe fake? or as in variables true/false

the concept between false and fake is different.....but I didn't understand what the angle has to do with it......you mean degrees of angle?

 

[JLou5641]

no you say?
So if we increase the speed of the swing, I don't improve the aim?
then you have to explain this that you see now in the video, how do you interpret it?
how do i do in your opinion? to hit the ramp (ramp absurd to me in this table) @GeorgeH forgiving me if I'm putting it here.
View attachment 21757


when I say increase the swing speed I mean this
View attachment 21756


EDIT:
PS: then I'll explain the technical data of that fin(flipper)

okey, so here.. you are in catapult situation.. not kicking situation... considere that when ball rolling on flipper bats, you are always in catapult situation.. but here you are with a vertical bat, and difficult with that, it's you can't control your ball, to push the ball like you want with each time the same timing.. With a vertical bat, each time the ball roll on, she never has the same velocity, and by the way, you need to adapt your timing... Early for fast ball, lately for slow ball.. .This is why it's difficult for those bats.. The secret in pinball is "control your ball for aiming" but with vertical bats you can't and you need be more more concentrate . It's like addam's family, and it work well on my version.

When you talked about speed, your wrong.. Swing is not the speed... it's the travel of the bats... Speed is due to Omega x time ( this is why Rotation charts are awesome ).
And everybody body use 52 for "cheating" the aiming, because angle made by the ball when she leave the flipper bats is false due to ON/OFF coil.
Real swing for Flipper bats, are 48 for bally/Williams/DE, 52 for stern/Gottlieb sys 3, and start angle if I remember right is 118° for williams. See my table on my mega to have good swing and start angle.

This why Rotation chart is important, because it's the coil ramp up ( acceleration of flipper bats ) who made great accuracy.

 

[JLou5641]

The explanation of why all use "extra swing", is because till today, without Rotation Charts, aiming shoot are too wide... So to compensate it, all creator use close angle for swing... But it's not realistic, and make ball control too easy and eratic aiming.

For your informations, i make my version of addam's and bride if pinbot with real owners of those pinball to try to have the good timing and aiming.. it's not perfect but it's lot of better

 

[Paolo]

ok,to understand better ..... apart from the mathematical formulas ....... I have to understand what it is

flippers BATS........please what do you mean by BATS ..... ARE THE BATS OF BATMAN?the image above? the translator keeps telling me bats intended as animals

but I know you mean something else, but I don't understand what, is it a mathematical term? is it a precise point of the flippers?is the length of the flippers? the size of flippers ..... what please? put an image, is there an image?

then......coil what is?

I almost understand everything you wrote, but these two things(BATS and COIL) put me off track

 

[Paolo]

after dinner I post that video of my table with your DF, in the meantime have a nice dinner too, and thank you very much for your time I spend with me

 

[JLou5641]

lool.. bats is "fin" for you.. Coil its the electromecanical solenoid wich activate the flipper bats. Search for pinball coil in google

 

[JLou5641]

after dinner I post that video of my table with your DF, in the meantime have a nice dinner too, and thank you very much for your time I spend with me

have a nice dinner too... i'm under cooking waiting my wife and children

 

[JLou5641]

Redirect Notice

images.app.goo.gl

 

[GeorgeH]

I haven't been paying attention to this thread before now, but it seems chock full of amazing stuff (most of it right over my head).

This thread is pretty much over my head too.

• The Rotation Chart approach

I don't understand this very well either. The chart is simple. It is just a chart with time on one axis and percent on the other. The question is percent of what? I don't really know; possibly percent of full speed. According to JLou, the chart simulates the activation of the solenoid coil on a flipper. It starts out a little slow and increases suddenly.

• ShivaFlippers

Just a version of Dynamic Flippers only much more complex. It helps to do tricks.

• DynamicFlippers

I defined this in the glossary. In simplest terms, the code changes the strength of a flipper so it is strongest at the base and weakest at the tip. The amount of bounce of the ball off the flippers can be adjusted too. It seems to be what FP needs to perform better.

• XML physics documents

This defines the physical characteristics of all the objects on a table. It controls strength, elasticity, friction and a few other things.

• anything else relevant?

Everyone seems to forget that the strength of many objects on the table is set in the FP editor. Many objects have a slider for strength. The XML sets parameters for all objects of a specific type (link bumpers, flippers, slingshots) on the table to bethe same. You can change the strength of each bumper and other objects to be different using sliders in the FP editor.

My understanding is that BAM powers all these physics and flipper-physics tweaks, but I've no idea how many of these can be mixed n' matched, and no idea if that would even make sense.

They can all be mixed together except Shiva and Dynamic flippers.

If I manage to gain a basic understanding of this stuff, I wouldn't mind adding the info to Wiki's FP entry as another useful update. Thanks for any help, mateys.

I am not sure that level of detail is needed.

 

[JLou5641]

I don't understand this very well either. The chart is simple. It is just a chart with time on one axis and percent on the other. The question is percent of what? I don't really know; possibly percent of full speed. According to JLou, the chart simulates the activation of the solenoid coil on a flipper. It starts out a little slow and increases suddenly.

It's that @GeorgeH, Rotation speed chart is base on omega you set. so it's a percentage of the full Omega. If you have omega 45, at 50% in the curve at 15ms for an ex you will have 22.5