Support File BAM FizX FizX Resources Files v200 - !! Huge Update !! ( Update from 20-12-2022 )

I did start with fresh settings for the fpxEngine table, including xml, but decided to redo it. I did clean up and made sure I removed all the flipper code before hand as well.
After removing any other code in fpx that MIGHT affect your coding, including several BAM coding already in there, the flippers still had problems, so instead I copied in the external file which seems to work better and then copy it directly into my script. Of course this is all just using the flipper code. There are some problems, the ball sometimes doesn't even roll down the flipper when the flipper is up, and the ball sometimes speeds up or slows down on the flipper as well. The ball seems to move too heavy, and sometimes speeds up and slows down. I suspect my threshold settings will work better

The point of this is though it may be some of my settings, we all have different settings, and this needs to be a bit more flexible to meet these needs. I am looking at this because I always want to improve fpxEngine, and if the specialized features I had to remove were worth replacing with this script, and if it was worth justifing the time to fix or totally rewrite things. This is something that everyone will need to do with their own tables, not just me. I think the 2 of you should be more understanding of that fact, even if they don't conform to your way of ball and flipper movement.
 
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shiva said:
There are some problems, the ball sometimes doesn't even roll down the flipper when the flipper is up, and the ball sometimes speeds up or slows down on the flipper as well.
Click to expand...
it's a FP issue. Not FizX issue. It's solved by set ballkinetic sensivity in Gameplay option..

It seems you want to mix FizX with your method.. I think you will take a wrong way . you'll never find something good by mixed them.

FizX just add what missing on Fp, and solved issue FP have. But all that you can do with flipper is purely by "natural" engine game behaviour.. Not "cheating" like the Aimrange and AimOrientation i added for those need it on their table which are designed for old physics.

I invite you to talked to @TerryRed about this point.
 
I ran into the exact same things you describe as well in the beginning. It was always a matter of me needing the right settings, but I simply didn't understand how it all worked (I still barely do and needed JLou at first to get to a good point to go from, as I'm not a physics guy).

The fps in the xml will determine and require specific FizX settings.... or you will get the issues you describe.

It's why I mentioned about taking a look at my examples with Star Wars DSA GE / Sonic, and my other releases with FizX. I added multiple "FizX profiles" for this very reason, as I found out real quick when having multiple VP guys testing Sonic that not everyone likes the same settings for physics... and they all returned with some different settings, but they are still played fine (no odd issues), and they were all very happy with how it played.

The newer v109 however has more options that works better compared to what I used on my releases so far. Especially for needing natural wider shots off the flipper tip without needing to adjust the rest of the flipper to accommodate that.

Once you get to a point to finding what works "correct" as well as your own preferences... then its easy to offer options after that (however you want), like I did.

Look at my recent releases with FizX as an example (keeping in mind that they still use the older code). I only used FizX and nothing else for the physics.
 
about that ball not rolling on flipper... you did check that SwingAngle in the script is teh same as swing angle a set in FP GUI, right?

And unless you hammer the code ALL flippers in the table need to have same swing angle.
 
Guys, I have been making tables for 22 years now.
I found the error for the flippers was in the editor, I deleted and reloaded the models, better now. Has to be my computer there. I haven't fiddled with the main script at all, it is all stock, but seems okay now. I will spend a bit more time on this, I want to see what I can get away with the settings. I do find the ball is too constrained, and any changes to xml can cause a major screwup that normally we can get away with, for example all objects that were set to metal became unrendered in table view with one different xml. This also means that the BAM xml collection in the BAM menu could become useless as well.

Terry, I have meant to look at your examples down the road anyway, so will grab them and have a look down the road. My next fpxEngine version will be using latest stuff, like maybe fleep etc, just been a matter of time with me.
 
About setting things in GUI, make sure strengths sliders are in the middle.

Render problems are always solved by closing FP and starting it again.
It's almost certain you'll find problems (not just rendering) by just starting the same table over and over without closing FP. And MAKE sure FP is closed in task manager because sometimes it doesn't ( I actually call it with a batch script that kills any fp .exe it after closing it)

Yes, I know, PITA but that's how it is.

I don't know what you mean with ball is constrained.
 
Here is a version of the template example with v109, and some of the other stuff I added (like FizX Profiles, Tweaker Tool, etc)

I cleaned the code up a bit (formatting,etc) and it's all in the table script and a bit neater and easier to read. The FizX tweaker tool included only has settings options for the older version of FizX, so none of the newer (better) options can be adjusted from the Tool yet.

Keep in mind, this is not considered a great "table" example yet (compared to Cosmic Princess, Sonic, Star Wars DSA GE, etc)... but its more a table to copy and paste from. I just copied the settings I'm using from Jaws BBE... so they may not be ideal for this template example.

Also, we are currently still sorting and testing newer changes (not on this table) as we speak. just needs lots of testing / tweaking,etc. So this is not a "final" version.

I tend to make my table releases play more modern / faster compared to older 80s or EM tables. So I haven't really tried any settings / profiles for that yet.
 

Attachments

  • FizX-Template-v109c - TerryRed example (FizX code in table).zip
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AnonTet said:
About setting things in GUI, make sure strengths sliders are in the middle.

Render problems are always solved by closing FP and starting it again.
It's almost certain you'll find problems (not just rendering) by just starting the same table over and over without closing FP. And MAKE sure FP is closed in task manager because sometimes it doesn't ( I actually call it with a batch script that kills any fp .exe it after closing it)

Yes, I know, PITA but that's how it is.

I don't know what you mean with ball is constrained.
Click to expand...
Didn't know about task manager. Never seemed to happen to me.

There just seems to be too much "Weight" on the ball is what I meant. (all these comments are from your actual test fpt, and just impressions as I was playing it at that time) and sometimes it seems to slow down and speed up. It didn't happen all that often, but it did. I don't mind the physics, but there are several areas I felt could be improved with ball movement, especially how it moves if the speed is weak and it rides up and then down a flipper, it is too slow, it just didn't look right. I also noticed a couple things in the XML, you have the metal set to a higher elasticCoef for example, but it has less "give" than wood and plastic, so I like my wood and plastic xml to be higher values than metal.

Speaking of this, it occured to me to take one of my old games, pre-bam, and add this and see what happens after I mess around a bit more.
TerryRed said:
Look at my recent releases with FizX as an example (keeping in mind that they still use the older code). I only used FizX and nothing else for the physics.
Click to expand...
This is what I intend to do Terry. There needs to be multiple settings especially if this is used for fpxEngine. If you and I have problems understanding this script, then beginners will have no chance in being able to change this, the code requires too deep of a understanding. From my point of view as the dev, the most important thing with fpx is flexibility as well as ease of use. The code was already set up to be able to simulate eras of games, anywhere from 1950's to modern in terms of it's flippers, with the rest easy enough to add in when the time comes (just a lot of time) With the object restriction removed totally finally, that gives me a lot of new options, so that's what I am doing here, seeing what I can (and cannot) do.
 
Yes, it was JLou's intention to eventually get to a point that would allow for "options" to choose from for the player. By era, system, realistic, arcade, more bouncy, etc. I'm not the guy to figure that part out, as I tend to use just one main bit of settings, and adjust only as needed for the table. Some older FP tables were made for old FP wide shooting flippers as an example,, and now we have new settings that allow that to work without sacrificing the accuracy of the rest of the flipper.

I added the FizX Profiles on my releases originally to accommodate slower PCs that needed to run fps=296 in the xml to run the game smoothly. I give full instructions (with pictures) on my table releases and explain it all. So far, everyone has understood it fine, and has not had any issue changing both the Profile and xml fps to match as needed. If the fps could be changed as a variable it would be super easy, but we can't do that. :(

My i5 4670K and GTX 1080 struggled to keep Star Wars DSA GE and Jaws BBE perfectly smooth in 4K when things get "busy" using 592, but with 296 they run smooth, but other tables are fine so far on that PC in 592. My newer PC handles everything fine so far in 4K with 592.

I really struggled at first to adapt to FizX, as I was so used to how the older dynamic physics worked. I had to stop thinking like that. "Everything" on the table needed to be adjusted, and we really figured out a lot getting Sonic working correctly. Even now, some of what we did to get Sonic working is no longer needed with the new v109.

There are a few things I notice with FixX, and its probably some of what you are referring to. I felt the ball was too heavy when using slope of 6 or higher. I liked it better using 5 to 5.5 for slope. It just felt better for me, and when I adjusted everything from there, and got the right flipper settings... then it made a huge difference.

The other thing I do also notice that when the ball falls downward, say from left of the pf to right, it sometimes feels like its dropping too quickly / unnaturally to the center. I then realized that this isn't as much a FizX issue as its a "FP" quirk. When I went back and played non-FizX tables, I was noticing the same behaviour sometimes. It's just that FizX amplifies that quirk more so it stands out.... and sometimes the ball simply drops to center too quickly.

I find post passing still harder with FizX, but that is the compromise when wanting to have more realism and more trick shots, etc. I just have to get to know it a bit better for each table, instead of just flicking the flipper like I did before FizX.

Those are the only big things that stood out, once a table is properly dialed in. Yes, FP's jankiness creeps in from time to time and the ball won't always go as you expect (just in natural movement...not a flipper issue)... but that is much less of a thing now compared to before.
 
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Yeah Terry. FP is such a pain in the ass sometimes.

I tried adding your script, but there's a conflit somewhere, as I get the dreaded "seq" error that points to a line number that it shouldn't. So just used one of your profiles, and modifing it later to see how it works, and then add the rest of the profile code next. Because of the conflict, I have to add bit by bit and see where that error is, but so far so good. Minor adjustments had to be made, like the ball wouldn't bounce off the flipper if the flipper was up, it just stopped dead, so I better triple check all that fpx code just to make sure.
Changing FlipperStaticFriction and FlipperKineticFriction to half it's values fixed that. It shouldn't have to be changed, I just overwrote the user settings and not any of the other code, including the xml, but who the heck knows what is causing that problem. Still, thanks for taking the time to do this, I like the overall play better than the stock settings, though I did turn the speed down. I view a lot of videos on gameplay, and especially ones done in the 1980's, so that's how I base my tuning of my games. This new system makes things faster than before by the looks of it, so it requires adjustments as the physics are greatly changed.
 
Actually Terry, after playing this, I found it a lot harder as well... but, it was because of the size of the flippers, which are a lot larger than we both may be use to. Longer surface means the contact points would be spread out more. On top of it, because fpx is a Bally type game, I had to move the flippers so they were father apart, which pretty much changed every shot in the table so now it plays more like a stop game, which is completely throwing me off. Because of that, I had to adjust the slings so post passes were possible. I hope more flipper models are coming soon, because my table sure looks weird with those massive williams type flippers on them and not the standard 3 inch models.
 
shiva said:
I do find the ball is too constrained
Click to expand...
Like i said, play with PF friction... test with Static at 0.02 and kinetic at 0.02...

Also, the template is not design to play.. It's design to test how it work, what it do, how FizX is implemented, what consequence have each tuning.
But is not finish.
Tutorial need to be made also.
shiva said:
massive williams type flippers on them and not the standard 3 inch models
Click to expand...
Which type of flipper you talked about? if you talked about those from template, they are the standard flipper since DIGIT ( System 11 for exemple ) and DOT Flipper
 
Travel day for me so quickly. The 40-50 ea used 2 inch long flippers, (This is measuring the plastic part, or the sleeve to help you understand better) and then in the 1960's, all the companies went to 3 inch in length, which is still used today, including Stern. Though the tip and base diameter were different from each manufacturer, the length was the standard. That's why you could use a stern flipper on a williams, the length makes them interchangable. That would be in FP terms T1 medium (Williams, new Stern, ) T4 and T5 (Bally, Gottlieb, old Stern) There were variations, the one you did was a longer version, but not used all that often. There was one even longer (Called Big Flipper... natch) and other variations, but 3 inch was considered the "standard" So if you can do a T1 medium and a T4/T5 down the road then everyone would be happy.

I have no problem with the physics. If you play with it enough you can find out al sorts of things. I know these are VPX physics, so the one thing this demonstrated that vpx physics were one person figuring out all the settings and MOST everyone else said they were "good enough" and just used those from then on. I have no clue about vpx, I left that community 10 years ago, and haven't played it in years, so it was interesting to me to see what all the fuss was about when you released this.

Shame, but their loss. There's things in there just looking at this that everyone either forgot about or just didn't know about. (If this is a direct port of the vpx code, and assuming the variables are similar) As a example, I see the ability to have a variable coil system similar to what I did quite easily, which I never even knew was in there in vpx and pleases me to no end because I consider that absolutely important because of it's play advantages. I also think that port may finally be the key to removing that ball sliding off the flipper/sinking ball thing we have seen since day one of FP (And yes unfortunately it is in your script, I have seen it a couple times, though the model greatly improves it) so it's just finding the right formula for the numbers.

I'm sure the numbers will come once we spent the time working on it. Using it in fpxEngine, quite pleased with what I have already after a few hours of tweaks and experiments.
 
As far as I understand it.... FizX is an "adaption" of nFozzy physics to FP's physics. nFozzy is not the same as the standard VPX physics (its an extension of VP's physics with its own code, etc). nFozzy is more preferred by most players / creators on VP. It does however use more CPU than standard VPX physics. (FizX also uses more CPU as well).

So what JLou has done has been using those techniques as a starting point, then adapting it to FP's own engine.... but then adding his own features / ideas since then, as not all the settings are the same, and some are new on FizX. At least that's what I understood.
 
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shiva said:
Travel day for me so quickly. The 40-50 ea used 2 inch long flippers, (This is measuring the plastic part, or the sleeve to help you understand better) and then in the 1960's, all the companies went to 3 inch in length, which is still used today, including Stern. Though the tip and base diameter were different from each manufacturer, the length was the standard. That's why you could use a stern flipper on a williams, the length makes them interchangable. That would be in FP terms T1 medium (Williams, new Stern, ) T4 and T5 (Bally, Gottlieb, old Stern) There were variations, the one you did was a longer version, but not used all that often. There was one even longer (Called Big Flipper... natch) and other variations, but 3 inch was considered the "standard" So if you can do a T1 medium and a T4/T5 down the road then everyone would be happy.
Click to expand...
Those flipper on my template are the flipper i see in real... And this is the flipper we use for VPX Williams type table made by flupper and mainly used by VPW team, i converted it from VPX to FP and correspond exactly to T1-Long on FP. The T1 Long are the 3inch ( ~80mm )... not the medium.

shiva said:
Shame, but their loss. There's things in there just looking at this that everyone either forgot about or just didn't know about. (If this is a direct port of the vpx code, and assuming the variables are similar) As a example, I see the ability to have a variable coil system similar to what I did quite easily, which I never even knew was in there in vpx and pleases me to no end because I consider that absolutely important because of it's play advantages. I also think that port may finally be the key to removing that ball sliding off the flipper/sinking ball thing we have seen since day one of FP (And yes unfortunately it is in your script, I have seen it a couple times, though the model greatly improves it) so it's just finding the right formula for the numbers.
Click to expand...
For flipper code, nothing went from VPX, as VPX do most of this natively....All the code is my code.
The nfozzy inspired part from VPX is only for the Playfield Rubber parts, and here too it's all my code.. Only the method with Editor is inspired from VPX nfozzy
 
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Okay, now I see. My parts suppliers all say Modern stern are either 3 inches (76.2 mm) with one saying 3.15, which is 80.01 mm which you used, so that means the other stock models like the T4 and T5 are completely wrong, because they are suppose to be 3 inches, yet they are more like 2 1/4 proper scale in FP? Same with the 2 inch flippers then as well. You may be right, maybe Lio mis-measured the dimensions or was given the wrong scaling that was changed later after he did the models. Or the table dimensions scale that we use is off or something like that.
Just wondering as my table is 520mm, slightly wider than normal, and the flippers just dominate the table compared to T4 or T5
 
Yep, the other model, are for pinball model which have little flipper like you could find in adam's for exemple.. but main flipper, i never see smaller than the one i use on my template..
I just take measurment now on real i have... approx 80mm with rubber... like in FP T1
 
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Sorry, I apologize for not being clear and ended up muddling it (up at 4 in the morning.) I was using the 80 mm version, the other model is correct,it's 77mm for wpc and below, stern we can call 80 mm, which is your model. The wpc/earlier model scales correctly, maybe rename the 80 mm flipper stern to prevent further confusion?
 
the flipper i have on my hand is a 80mm dot wpc 😉 ( around 75 without the rubber )
 
I've seen people on other forums list dimensions with the rubber attached, which is not what the industry does, which is what I meant to explain. It's the plastic piece only (with/without attached rod) that is mentioned, the rubber portion is separate and never included because it's not sold with the flipper, that is personal preference because there are so many thicknesses, types, brands etc. The best source is from the people who sell the parts themselves. A couple do list dimensions with all their parts, and these are the people who would know. Stern for example is 3.15" x 2.17" x .70"

When you buy from them, you have to order the rubber piece separate if you need one . Using wpc type flippers as a example.
The base of the flipper is a 15mm diameter circle, sloping down to a 5mm diameter circle at the tip. Overall length is 71mm, so the distance between centers of the circles should be 61mm. The flipper is 24mm height. This is from a standard Williams flipper paddle from a WPC era game.
Click to expand...

JJP still uses wpc flippers I believe, as they have a license to use them.

https://www.gameroomguys.com/ is a good place to start. Marco and PinballLife should have some dimensions as well.
 
yes. So Flipper T1 or Williams i have converted for FP is the good one. 3inch.
~77 mm without rubber ( 3 x 2,54 = 7.7cm ), and then ~80mm with rubber. Like my real one.
So, if need, it will not be diffucult to make other shorter model or longeur.. ( And Gottlieb Sys 3 too.. I have one Stargate )


1666171394733.png
1666171418258.png

Bally make a longer Flipper ( Carrot flipper ). And because Ghosbuster have space between flipper little bigger, and make this flipper more challenging.. Some player put Carrot Flipper or longer flipper.

1666171997816.png
 
If you ask me, all the sizes should be available eheh
 
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