VP is Flawed - FP is far superior technology

[TheMcD]

You actually thought I could have been unbiased? I am one of the three founding members, how could I not be biased?

The only thing I want to happen to this discussion is for it to actually END. That's wishful thinking, I know, but at least one can try to get close. The thing is: We'll run into a rut sooner or later (I think we're already foot-deep in it) and this will go nowhere. So, a suggestion: We'll just go on, play some VP, and tell every new questioner the same thing we've told him before, whatever that was.

I guess that will be all you'll get out of me, with the exception of direct questions directed at me, I might still answer those.

The McD

 

[1234fd]

McD, you are now emotionally involved with all of this, not a good thing, it's only pinball. .......
....... forum name isn't going to keep me from enjoying the program to it's max.

This situation will probably never end as people, almost daily, ask questions as to what happened to the old VPF and AJ. Anything that splits the community up into smaller groups is not a good thing in my opinion.

The new VPForums is absolutely fantastic and everything anyone would want it to be. It's only blemish is its name. Noah deserves an enormous amount of thanks and respect and let's hope the forum name remains his only fuckup.

The underlined text resumes quite well my opinion about the whole situation, & i´m quite sure it´s also the opinion of the huge majority of people visiting VPF.org or even here at PN

 

[Anthias]

McD, you are now emotionally involved with all of this,

I withdraw this statement, as discussed in this thread, it is based on a misunderstanding. It remains quoted simply to leave continuity to the discussion.

Emotionally is better than financially - dont go donating to the org if what I have had pm'd to me is true - who among the community has ever been paid for their contributions as staff on any site?


Thought I'd check the info myself, and here it is: http://vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=627

A legal minefield. Maintaining the site is one thing - but paying staff? that makes it a commercial enterprise. Get ready for the lawsuits from parties holding rights in materials hosted there!

It also makes it smell even worse than it allready did, given the previously drummed into the ground story of who and where from and why and how this site came to be.

btw in case it wasn't allready patently obvious, the ORG will NEVER be granted permission to host my tables, and this info sealed it in stone.

For the moment I retain my position on denying permision for table hosting, for the usual reasons of updates, licences, etc. Perhaps as the org matures, this can change. There ARE sites that have such permission, other than PO, and each and everyone has had to prove itself over time. This is the position the org is in at this point. It is not an attack on the Org or its management.

 

[bob]

You actually thought I could have been unbiased? I am one of the three founding members, how could I not be biased?


The McD

Don't become an old man before your time.

I'm one of the 500 founding members, that doesn't sound like much now, but wait until VP catches on in China.....

 

[Noah Fentz]

Emotionally is better than financially - dont go donating to the org if what I have had pm'd to me is true - who among the community has ever been paid for their contributions as staff on any site?

Thought I'd check the info myself, and here it is: http://vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=627

A legal minefield. Maintaining the site is one thing - but paying staff? that makes it a commercial enterprise. Get ready for the lawsuits from parties holding rights in materials hosted there!

It also makes it smell even worse than it allready did, given the previously drummed into the ground story of who and where from and why and how this site came to be.

btw in case it wasn't allready patently obvious, the ORG will NEVER be granted permission to host my tables, and this info sealed it in stone.

Non-profit ventures have expenses, too. Do server fees make it commercial? What about domain renewal?

My coders are not really "on staff", they are independent contractors working with me to make the site as best as potentially possible.

Don't go throwing that kind of nonsense around, as there is no truth in that statement. AJ's WAS a commercial enterprise, and I saw no one object to his site. This is nothing more than a smear campaign, and it's entirely unfounded.

VPForums.org does not profit from the sale of any licensed material...period. Its sole purpose is perpetuating the VP community.

 

[Anthias]

one post is a smear campaign?.... hmmmm..... Your perspective is... Interesting. And once more your post contains unmitigated nonsense and self justification.

Besides, It's not me you would have to convince of the commercial enterprise thing. And the difference between that and vpf is quite important - vpf allways claimed (regardless of what you might think the reality was) donations were ONLY for server costs. Nobody earned income from any aspect of the site - at least officially. If they are contractors as you say, then they are involved in a commercial agreement with you for the creation, improvement and maintainance of a site that distributes copyrighted materials - legally, and in the eye of a lawyer, that is commercial enterprise. Those coders need to be aware that this is how it may be interpretted by the law. How things HAVE been interpreted by the law in other, nonpinball related situations.

I couldn't give two hoots if they are paid from that perspective. However, to the hosting permission thing, I wont let them profit from my own work - if the site is paying coders, and the pay of those coders is driven by people using the site, downloading from the site, liking the site and deciding to donate (which more power to you - it DOES look like a nicely produced site - taken without any bias or distaste regarding the how what why and wname stuff) because at some level of thought it equates to supporting the authors, then I have a problem. By all means, accept donations to cover costs, but be careful of how it happens, what those costs are, and what is said.

To say there is no truth to the statement is to go on the defensive without actually putting forward any defence. It is simply providing fuel for what pheonix said all along about the lack of adequate support for your protestations of innocence. Now, in the begining I said I would give you guys the benefit of the doubt as to any wrong doing, and I am still willing to give that benefit of the doubt now though I am not entirely sure why. While I agree that non-profit ventures have costs, it is a grey area you have entered - and that is my point. I am sure you do not see any problem with what you are doing, and yes you ARE providing something the community needs - a site dedicated to VPM and VP related files and discussion, however I stand by the statement that it smells more now than it did, having people who late in the history of the thing were on staff at one forums, taking that name, creating a new forums, gaining immediate membership, and a ready made download library, then being paid for their efforts, by users who may or may not appreciate the ethical dilemma this creates. Not you noah, necessarily, not personal. but it DOES smell like that. If you are going to insist that there is no way it could smell that way, then there is more foolishness in the world than I previously believed.

 

[Noah Fentz]

Unfortunately, Anthias, my coder (which there now is only one) is not as enamored with VP as we are. I would love to have someone to help with some PhP work that would do it for free.

As for my "defense", I don't need any. I believe what I did was the right thing for the community, and I'm standing my ground 100%. I have spent HOURS and HOURS on this project, and for what? I'm not making ANY money...NONE, nor is anyone on the staff.

You're simply taking this too far and reading into this what you want to. No one is making ANY donation money as income. I PAID THE CODER OUT OF MY OWN POCKET, which I will continue to do. That means I cannot afford server fees. I'm not even working!

When you say, "dont go donating to the org if what I have had pm'd to me is true," that sounds like a smear campaign to me! How can you possibly say something like that without knowing ANY facts?

I'd like to know just what the PM contained. It obviously was from a misinformed instigator, because nothing that is ACTUALLY happening should bother anyone, quite the contrary, in fact.

If you actually registered and took one look at all the hard work that has gone into it out of the sheer love for VP, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

So, let's revisit the quote from my forum, shall we?

My server fees aren't exorbitant, but I do pay the coding staff. I can't expect hours of their great work for nothing in exchange!

I pay them, not donations.

Sorry we have to go at each other like this, but I really am getting irritated with the continual unfounded accusations. I have a great site with a great staff. Why can't everyone just enjoy it without all the drama?!

 

[Anthias]

This community has allways had the drama. It allways will have the drama. It thrives on the drama. It wouldn't BE here without the drama!

And your FULL post reads differently.

Many of you have asked about being able to help support the site with donations. I really appreciate that. I am not employed right now and really didn't want to have to ask for donations, but I didn't anticipate the growing expense.

My server fees aren't exorbitant, but I do pay the coding staff. I can't expect hours of their great work for nothing in exchange!

So, if you wish to show your support for vpforums.org, I added a PayPal Donate link on the home page.

Thank you for all your support, it's truly appreciated.

Paul (Noah)

Now, fine, YOU paid them, out of your own pocket, good stuff and good on you for demonstrating your love for VP by being willing to pull cash from your own wallet, like the donators do.

But how can this be seen not to imply that the donations in some respect do not make their way into that same pile of costs? You do not in that post differentiate between the costs involved in your "growing expense". You did not say "I paid them, and so now I can't pay for the server" Now - if that IS indeed what was meant, then I appologise for misunderstanding. However, surely you can understand how your wording could be construed in this way?

If the ONLY costs being donated for are the server costs, please tell me and I will withdraw the statement about not donating, as it would be unfair to ask somebody to put that amount of cost out of pocket in hard times. PO has allways been lucky in benefiting from generous people donating the server space, and so has never asked for donations of money - but had we been paying the server costs, I certainly would not have been able to do so alone.

And that PM? It was one, and only one, from an individual imploring me to make my tables available there, who having read my previous statements over the years regarding monetary gain in threads about things like the ebay scammers and the licences my tables are distributed under, had highlighted that thread as they felt I should be "Informed in my decision" but that they hoped I would reconsider. Now, that individual has praised your site, and was seeking to garner further support, but provided both sides to the equation in the request. There was no conspiracy, there was no smear campaign. Only one post, expressing the distaste of one user, to what that user (myself) had interpreted from your statement at the org.

Perhaps I could have said things differently - none of us need to be jumping at shadows, and the way we say things can make shadows larger.

 

[Noah Fentz]

You know, you're right, it is unclear, and I will clarify.

To be clear...

Neither myself nor anyone else will profit from the site's existence. Everything is free to download and use, as it should be.

I thought I had a great deal, as you mentioned about your server. Problem was my friend who donated the server thought I'd have a forum of 50-80 members. I'm sure you could imagine his surprise when he saw 65GB of bandwidth in 3 weeks!

So, I really hope we can put this down to rest. I really just want to focus on continuing my efforts on the site and in table development.

I hope to see you there, Anthias. Your works would definitely be welcome at the site. I know you've been around a long time, and it means a lot when I see the veterans of the VP community enjoying the forum.

One last thing...

There are times when we all post things that can be taken a multitude of ways. When you're looking for something negative in a post, you'll usually find it. I'd much rather answer thoughtful questions than dodge bullets. In the future, I think everyone, not just me, deserves that respect.

 

[Anthias]

Thankyou for being able and willing to discuss this sensibly. Post above edited accordingly.

 

[Noah Fentz]

Thankyou for being able and willing to discuss this sensibly...

Likewise.

 

[Phoenixx]

So no answer it is then, well, thats fine with me. I can do the math myself; i got no answer because there IS NONE. There IS NO reason for taking this name and not changing it other than the ones i named.

(Not that i couldnt have told you so right away.)

Of course admitting to it would have gained you at least some respect. Now you have blown even the last chance to get out of this with a little dignity. Too bad, but then again who cares, the stigma of being a plotting, scheming, respectless little Ferengi will be with you for the rest of your life and if thats not something to be proud of then what is.

Congratulations.

 

[elton]

So no answer it is then, well, thats fine with me. I can do the math myself; i got no answer because there IS NONE. There IS NO reason for taking this name and not changing it other than the ones i named.

(Not that i couldnt have told you so right away.)

Of course admitting to it would have gained you at least some respect. Now you have blown even the last chance to get out of this with a little dignity. Too bad, but then again who cares, the stigma of being a plotting, scheming, respectless little Ferengi will be with you for the rest of your life and if thats not something to be proud of then what is.

Congratulations.

That's pretty harsh Phoenixx - Noah has made his position clear and no matter what way he rewrites it, you are unlikely to accept his viewpoint and reasons for doing what he did. While many see it as helping the community others disagree; I'm sorry to say that it's sad that it comes to this over a hobby.

While I agree it is honorable to stick with principles it is not so honourable to just keep continuing to flog this and get personal with Noah. You strongly disagree with Noah's decisions period. End of game. Leave it there.

Just move on and don't expect further explanations that you will not accept anyway.

IMO the topic is now over. If I were Noah I would not wish to address this yet again. VPF.org is born and will continue to grow in strength and this is what Noah is trying to do - put the effort in to make it a solid resource for use by the wider community. I think everyone would prefer if you and some others were aboard to make it even stronger but that is your decision.

 

[Phoenixx]

That's pretty harsh Phoenixx

It was supposed to be.

(BTW, i have been told worse for less. And i had to live with it too.)

Noah has made his position clear and no matter what way he rewrites it, you are unlikely to accept his viewpoint and reasons for doing what he did.

Elton, there ARE NO reasons for doing what they did other than the ones i named. There ARE NONE. What he has given us is justifications and excuses.

And *IF* im wrong, if im *really* wrong, why doesnt he simply answer the question then? He answered Bobs and Anthias' and god knows who elses too? Because i wouldnt change my mind? How will he know? How could he know that they will? And how could i not change my mind if somebody gives me facts that cant be disputed? And why would i even ask if i really werent willing to change my mind? Of course if im perfectly right and they dont want to admit it then there is no sense in answering in deed. Otherwise they would at least try? You certainly dont convince anyone with silence.

End of game. Leave it there.

Just move on and don't expect further explanations that you will not accept anyway.

IMO the topic is now over.

If I were Noah I would not wish to address this yet again.

Yeah, swiping it under the carpet will really help. I have no doubt that this is exactly what he hopes happens, but wrong will be wrong anyway. Thats the trouble.

 

[yogiholzer]

So why again was it wrong?

 

[Phoenixx]

I dont know, i forgot.

 

[bob]

So why again was it wrong?

Yes, it's just a name, but what if I registered at VPF.org before you and registered as "yogiholzer" ? would that be confusing? Would that be respectful towards you? Would that be OK with you? Would it seem wrong to you? It all depends on how you want to look at something.... I don't think it would be right for me to do that, even though I could have done it if I wanted to. Now, what if you asked me to change it and I told you I'd think about, a few days later I tell you it's just a name, get over it. One month goes by and I'm the new Yogiholzer and you are just beating a dead horse.

Does this help to answer your question?

 

[Phoenixx]

I admire your patience. Sometimes i wish i were so patient too,...

 

[m4paws]

VPForums.org members get discounts on Nanotech hardware now? The line is getting more blurry every day. Perhaps you were right the first time Anthias?

http://www.nanotechent.com/vpcoupon.php

 

[ValamirCleaver]

VPForums.org members get discounts on Nanotech hardware now?

Not unlike the UltraPin discounts that Global VR gave VPForums.COM members about a year ago, that BMatth personally publicized there at that time. I don't recall any "unfounded conspiracy theories" concerning that; but if I am mistaken due to an imperfect memory, I'm sure someone will remind me...

 

[m4paws]

Not unlike the UltraPin discounts that Global VR gave VPForums.COM members about a year ago, that BMatth personally publicized there at that time. I don't recall any "unfounded conspiracy theories" concerning that; but if I am mistaken due to an imperfect memory, I'm sure someone will remind me...

It's sure easy to get under your skin isn't it?

I just never saw a big banner ad for a commercial product like that on the front of VPF. If it was there, I'm wrong.

 

[Phoenixx]

If it was there, I'm wrong.

There were none. Never.

AJ never allowed his site to be used as an advertising platform for commercial products, in fact it was even specifically forbidden by the forum rules to advertise commercial products on the site.

 

[ValamirCleaver]

It's sure easy to get under your skin isn't it?

Maybe in you own mind... Instead of of making rhetorical statements and asking rhetorical questions of an implicative nature, such as the below quoted ones; just say what's exactly on your mind.

The line is getting more blurry every day. Perhaps you were right the first time Anthias?

 

[m4paws]

Maybe in you own mind... Instead of of making rhetorical statements and asking rhetorical questions of an implicative nature, such as the below quoted ones; just say what's exactly on your mind.

I did say what was on my mind - I said that perhaps Anthias was right with his original post. Since our little dances always work this way though, I'm going to end this one here too. Take your last jab and we'll close it.

 

[yogiholzer]

Yes, it's just a name, but what if I registered at VPF.org before you and registered as "yogiholzer" ? would that be confusing? Would that be respectful towards you? Would that be OK with you? Would it seem wrong to you? It all depends on how you want to look at something.... I don't think it would be right for me to do that, even though I could have done it if I wanted to. Now, what if you asked me to change it and I told you I'd think about, a few days later I tell you it's just a name, get over it. One month goes by and I'm the new Yogiholzer and you are just beating a dead horse.

Does this help to answer your question?

I understand that and I admit that it would confuse me and that it wouldn't delight me.

But what advantage would you expect to register http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=thMx..&search=completewith that name? You would be considered as a dipshit/muppet/retard/complete idiot, as from what I have to notice last.