Tutorial Physics/XML "XML" Arguments and Explanations

[AnonTet]

Let's hope someone can explain it better.

 

[GeorgeH]

All I can say about mass and gravity is that they interact with each other. When you change one, it affects the other. I have found that a heavy ball with a mass of around 70 tends to be more versatile and able to play on more tables with little adjustment. A heavy ball seems to help navigate ramps also. When you find a balance of mass and gravity values that you like, it works best to increase both when you make a change. It seems to work best if you increase mass by 1 or 2 that you should increase gravity by ~100.

 

[Paolo]

Let's hope someone can explain it better.

don't be offended my friend, but your "problem" is that you think too much about giving a scientific explanation ..... that's why it's dark magic for you.

look at George's answer instead, that's what I mean......

ok, I want to be clear, you pointed out to me that in DK, there is a slow gameplay, do you remember?
now with bally spectrum, you also have this problem ... right? so don't you think this would be a great opportunity to learn?

the fact of physics, and I am referring to the gameplay of a table, and we know it is complicated, but we try to create something positive for all of us.

 

[Paolo]

All I can say about mass and gravity is that they interact with each other. When you change one, it affects the other. I have found that a heavy ball with a mass of around 70 tends to be more versatile and able to play on more tables with little adjustment. A heavy ball seems to help navigate ramps also. When you find a balance of mass and gravity values that you like, it works best to increase both when you make a change. It seems to work best if you increase mass by 1 or 2 that you should increase gravity by ~100.

perfect!!!! your rating is brilliant.

me too on DK, I'm trying to find a balance between mass and gravity, so you agree with me, when I say that: modifying these two characteristics (I hope that's the right word) maybe it works better "functions".... that you get a gameplay faster? and does the ball goes down more faster in the fins?

 

[AnonTet]

I know well enough not to be offended wild and I'm more than used to forums than I care to admit for that. Don't worry about that.

It's just that I don't think I can add anything else, unfortunately. I wrote that not everyone is suited for this :)

 

[GeorgeH]

me too on DK, I'm trying to find a balance between mass and gravity, so you agree with me, when I say that: modifying these two characteristics (I hope that's the right word) maybe it works better "functions".... that you get a gameplay faster?

The game usually plays faster when you increase both mass and gravity.

and does the ball ascend faster in the fins?

I assume you mean that the ball travels faster after being hit by the flippers after you increase mass and gravity.

I would say perhaps slightly.

 

[Paolo]

The game usually plays faster when you increase both mass and gravity.

exactly G,....so that way it would be like in a real table, right?

I assume you mean that the ball travels faster after being hit by the flippers after you increase mass and gravity.

I would say perhaps slightly.

yes, but I meant when the ball goes down to the fins, not when it goes up.....
sorry if I made this mistake, I corrected my sentence(above) in black

 

[Popotte]

But the problem is: when you increase (or decrease) ball mass and/or gravity, all the other parameters are affected.
And I think you can't have an "universal" setup for parameters (ramps/no ramps, open field/many bumpers, ...).
If you have a look to mass parameters (in .xml), you'll see that the mass don't reflect real mass (and same for gravity).
So, it's a pain to get good values.

 

[Paolo]

I totally agree with you, Jp ...... and that's why I opened this thread, to try to understand how and what to do to get a good result, talking about it all together

 

[StevOz]

Interesting, though in real world planet earth physics, gravity is constant at sea level, defined standard gravitational acceleration for the surface of the Earth: gn = 9.80665 m/s2.

So whatever the equivalent value is in FP should be used assuming the Newton physics engine actually does emulate real world physics.

Also a pinball of Standard size (1 and 1/16 inches), weighs (2 and 7/8 ounces) or 81.50487 grams.

 

[GeorgeH]

exactly G,....so that way it would be like in a real table, right?


yes, but I meant when the ball goes down to the fins, not when it goes up.....
sorry if I made this mistake, I corrected my sentence(above) in black

I don't know what sort of adjustments can be made on a real table.

Well I suppose that if the ball is traveling faster all over the table it would travel faster to the flippers.

 

[GeorgeH]

Interesting, though in real world planet earth physics, gravity is constant at sea level, defined standard gravitational acceleration for the surface of the Earth: gn = 9.80665 m/s2.

So whatever the equivalent value is in FP should be used assuming the Newton physics engine actually does emulate real world physics.

Also a pinball of Standard size (1 and 1/16 inches), weighs (2 and 7/8 ounces) or 81.50487 grams.

Gravity is pretty constant on earth and I don't know why you can adjust it on the Newton physics engine. All I know is you have to adjust both mass and gravity on FP to make it play well.

Interesting note on the ball weight. The mass has no unit of measure listed but 70 or 80 seems about right to me. It makes me think the unit of measure might be grams.

 

[GeorgeH]

But the problem is: when you increase (or decrease) ball mass and/or gravity, all the other parameters are affected.
And I think you can't have an "universal" setup for parameters (ramps/no ramps, open field/many bumpers, ...).
If you have a look to mass parameters (in .xml), you'll see that the mass don't reflect real mass (and same for gravity).
So, it's a pain to get good values.

I think you can get fairly close to a "universal" setup but I always seem to need to make changes to the 3 ball parameters more often than anything else but they are usually minor.

Everyone likes to talk about the parameters in the .xml but all the strength settings on the table objects have to be adjusted too.

 

[Popotte]

...
Interesting note on the ball weight. The mass has no unit of measure listed but 70 or 80 seems about right to me. It makes me think the unit of measure might be grams.

Extract from your .xml (but the others are more or less the same):

' <ball newtonDamping="0" mass="80" gravity="7100" damping="0.9"></ball>
' <autoplunger mass="20000.0" force="60000.0"></autoplunger>
' <diverter mass="10000.0" omega="33.0"></diverter>
' <gate mass="0.010" gravity="100" damping="0.25"></gate>
' <plunger mass="20000.0" force="30000.0"></plunger>
' <spindisk mass="10000.0" angularDamp="0.33" linearDamp="0.25"></spindisk>
' <spinner mass="60.0" gravity="100.0" angularDamp="0.25"...</spinner>
' <emkicker mass="10000.0" omega="40.0"></emkicker>
' <varitarget mass="500.0" damping="0.9" tension="3.0" return="15.0"></varitarget>
20 kg for an autoplunger... 0,01 g for a gate... 10 kg for a diverter...
As you can see, the knowledge of the meaning of the terms (gravity, mass) is of no use since the values are exotic.
The problem is to search good values (for playing) and not good values (from a physics point of view).
In fact, it would be a good thing to have .CreateAllExt for really all as we can built a test table with a lot of cheat keys (all the keyboard keys) in order to change in real time all parameters without having to exit the table, change manually the value, launch the table, ...

 

[Popotte]

I think you can get fairly close to a "universal" setup but I always seem to need to make changes to the 3 ball parameters more often than anything else but they are usually minor.

Everyone likes to talk about the parameters in the .xml but all the strength settings on the table objects have to be adjusted too.

No, because the new physic is for new pinballs, not for good old EM's (totally inoperate).
And, for me, the "universal" setup will be for setting set as middle or normal.

 

[Popotte]

I don't know what sort of adjustments can be made on a real table.

Well I suppose that if the ball is traveling faster all over the table it would travel faster to the flippers.

Concerning physic, the only adjustment is that of the slope of the pinball machine.
And the other (not concerning physic and/or rules) is the placement of the posts (pegs).

 

[Paolo]

I agree with @GeorgeH , I have tried on DK, that in order to have more speed in the gameplay, you have to adjust both mass and gravity, the real challenge is the values, but by doing tests, everyone can set the ideal values for the table they have in their hands in that moment......but i believe this is just the beginning.

@Popotte
JP.....tell me if I'm wrong, with your scheme above, you want to point out, that not only the mass of the ball is enough to change, but also of the various objects that you have put in black, right?

In fact, it would be a good thing to have .CreateAllExt for really all as we can built a test table with a lot of cheat keys (all the keyboard keys) in order to change in real time all parameters without having to exit the table, change manually the value, launch the table, ...

unfortunately I still can't understand well when you talk about CreateAllExt for all thing, but if you think it's a good thing, then so be it

but I have a question, but if all the lines make up the xml file, which is generated by bam, I believe that they can already be adjusted in the bam menu .... own because bam himself generate the xml file ..... . the biggest problem is knowing how to adjust these lines (or parameters).

now i understand that for an "EM" maybe it is not necessary to adjust some things like mass or gravity, or other parameters .... but i have a question ...... in a real table, an EM, like "solid state" ..... the ball what mass it has? can we talk about gravity in an EM? I don't know .... but I'm sure that in an EM, it is the "slope" that matters a lot.

now in an EM, objects such as bumpers, or slingshot or rubber, are the masters in these types of tables,and so it would be nice to know how they are set up in a real EM table.
I believe that a producer like "gottlieb"( an example) in all his EMs, in "solid state" has always used the same modalities ... I mean, same "slope", same strength in bumpers, same slingshot and rubber.....same mass of the ball.

thinking about this, EM question ..... the author of fp(Chris Leathley), how did he base himself to create a configuration for the physics of fp? if you open a new table, and go to bam, and generate an xml, you will see that it is what I put on the front page ...... where you see the mass at 18, and the gravity at 4000, I wonder are values reliable,compared to a real table?

 

[AnonTet]

1st thing I changed when I first look at this months ago, was ball mass to 80 in almost all tables I've downloaded. Then gravity to 9800 (made sense at the time) but 7000-8000 seems to work better in my tests for some reason. The most intriguing for me however was seeing different gravity values for other objects. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Slope is another one. I recall old tables with 8 slope (or around that) when the manual says the real table could be set between 5.7 and 6.3...

Not even worth getting into interaction with other materials.

Regarding EM vs modern subject is a moot point. In real life gravity affect all objects the same way, period. Calculations should be a natural outcome of the table setup, that's all. Either something is fundamentally wrong or we should've been given proper instructions on physics to make everything as realistic as possible (it'll never be like playing a real table) instead of "finger in the air" guesses even if educated ones.

 

[Paolo]

I agree that it will never be the same as the real one, but we can get closer, somehow.

I have never looked at the "xml" physics of another table, I never had the need, a technicolor dream, it would be to have a single physics applicable for all tables, so as to have optimal gameplay, neither too fast nor too slow, in between, I mean

I understand that the gravity of a game is not comparable to the real one which is constant, for everyone and in everything, but here we are talking about a game ... of which we have: standard fp physics, which I don't know on what basis it was conceived, and on the other part we have a Bam,which helps us to improve the physics of fp.

the keystone...... is to find out how.

 

[AnonTet]

Actually, you had several physics versions until fp2.7.exe I believe. And some tables were created for a particular version of FP too making them probably unplayable in any other version. Damn it, I can't find a solution, just more problems :D

 

[Popotte]

...
JP.....tell me if I'm wrong, with your scheme above, you want to point out, that not only the mass of the ball is enough to change, but also of the various objects that you have put in black, right?
....

Not this ones, I was talking about mass: just see the differnet value Ball = 80, spinner = 60. In fact, spinner is much ligher. Diverter mass = 10 000; Do you think diverter is 125 much heavy tahn a ball?

but I have a question, but if all the lines make up the xml file, which is generated by bam, I believe that they can already be adjusted in the bam menu .... own because bam himself generate the xml file ..... . the biggest problem is knowing how to adjust these lines (or parameters).

I think than BAM jsu give the possibility to change materials setting.

now i understand that for an "EM" maybe it is not necessary to adjust some things like mass or gravity, or other parameters .... but i have a question ...... in a real table, an EM, like "solid state" ..... the ball what mass it has? can we talk about gravity in an EM? I don't know .... but I'm sure that in an EM, it is the "slope" that matters a lot.

It's the same thing than modern pinballs, except for old EM's (small flippers).

now in an EM, objects such as bumpers, or slingshot or rubber, are the masters in these types of tables,and so it would be nice to know how they are set up in a real EM table.

Like other pinballs. A lot of people think than EM's equal weak bumpers, slingshots, ... Maybe they are a little bit powerful, but not a lot.

 

[Paolo]

Do you think diverter is 125 much heavy tahn a ball?

absolutely not,and so this should be fixed,don't tell me how, but i know there is a way

I think than BAM jsu give the possibility to change materials setting.

not just that, as far as I can see

It's the same thing than modern pinballs, except for old EM's (small flippers).

it is already something

Like other pinballs. A lot of people think than EM's equal weak bumpers, slingshots, ... Maybe they are a little bit powerful, but not a lot.

it wouldn't be a problem, this is easy to manage and adjust

Actually, you had several physics versions until fp2.7.exe I believe. And some tables were created for a particular version of FP too making them probably unplayable in any other version. Damn it, I can't find a solution, just more problems

do not try to do everything alone, if we all collaborate, and assemble all the various pieces of our puzzle, with the primary one, which is at stake for now, then we can create a unique puzzle that is the same for everyone ...I don't know if my concept is clear....

 

[AnonTet]

@wild

I meant that I wish I could be part of the solution but instead I just pointed out another problem. Alone I certainly can't do much as I'm also struggling with this not to mention I just arrived :)

@everyone :)

I'm pretty sure that we all want to achieve realistic results. With this in mind, as anyone tried to make it so using values that "make sense" to universal and know physical properties of the various objects involved? To try not to complicate too much, lets keep the subject of mass and gravity as these are pretty much known.

With this in mind, in my very own and not so educated opinion, mass=80 gravity=9800 could be accepted as realistic, ... right?

Obviously those values require quite a bit of changes to XML so I'm not asking you to try those. I'm just saying that if we have the chance to use realistic numbers we might get lucky that the physics engine works closer to reality thus, giving us better simulation experience.

 

[GeorgeH]

As you can see, the knowledge of the meaning of the terms (gravity, mass) is of no use since the values are exotic.

That is the point I was trying to make when I said words don't work. The definition of the terms won't help you make adjustments.

 

[Popotte]

...
With this in mind, in my very own and not so educated opinion, mass=80 gravity=9800 could be accepted as realistic, ... right?
...

Realistic for real world but not for .xml ->