Tutorial Physics/XML "XML" Arguments and Explanations

[Paolo]

@AnonTet
I like what you said above, that's what I'd like us to do and talk about, find the right values,and more realistic.

As you can see, the knowledge of the meaning of the terms (gravity, mass) is of no use since the values are exotic.

which means they are exotic?

That is the point I was trying to make when I said words don't work. The definition of the terms won't help you make adjustments.

ok, let's say it's as you say ..... but how do you make your changes then?

if the definitions of the terms don't help "we",so based on what you make your changes .... how do you understand to change one thing for another?

Realistic for real world but not for .xml ->

Really?? so what would your solution or thought be? there must be a compromise, right? or I have to assume that in recent years we have made tables that are practically unplayable......or the changes are made through xml, they don't need anything because all the values are exotic .... then a question arises spontaneously .... what's the point of having an xml, if we can't create an optimal configuration?
if we use these values, mass=80 gravity=9800 or others, which can be found based on mathematical calculations to be compared with the real ones, that is, they are in the real pinball ...... and as you say with this: "Realistic for real world but not for .xml -> "they can't be adapted in xml, because they don't work (I seem to understand this) then because there are all these" xml "that can be found around ...... @GeorgeH ....in gopinball "in bam corner" (cannot find now 1400 pages ) has created a thread dedicated to all the xml of this planet ..... then according to your theory they are all useless?

 

[Popotte]

I simply said than if a ball have a mass = 80, in the real worl a diverter would be have a mass of about 5, a gate about 3. So, as in the .xml we found a mass of 10 000 for diverter and 0,01 for gate, it's obvious that these values are not those of the real world. So, for the .xml, we don't have to think in terms of the real world, but just find values that work. And I never said that the values in the .xml was useless, I just said that if you applied these values in real world, they are not correct. But FP is not realworld, so these values are correct but just for FP.

 

[Paolo]

do you have a plausible explanation for this?

 

[Popotte]

Yes and the answer is given at the end.

 

[Paolo]

I simply said than if a ball have a mass = 80, in the real worl a diverter would be have a mass of about 5, a gate about 3. So, as in the .xml we found a mass of 10 000 for diverter and 0,01 for gate, it's obvious that these values are not those of the real world.

perfect is now very clear!!

So, for the .xml, we don't have to think in terms of the real world, but just find values that work.

I meant ..... when I said that if it was possible to find a configuration like the one found in the real one, I meant obviously not the same ... but to find a way to try to have a base to be able to start, for example the real ball how much it weighs .... let's say 10 kilos ...... now according to your school preparation (which I don't have) at what weight do we put it in FP ..... obviously we don't have the weight measurement , but we have the mass......so how much we put this mass?

obviously if we change the mass of the ball, we must also change the objects, which in the xml are all wrong .... ok .... then put the mass of the objects according to the mass we put on the ball( but "we" have to do some calculations that I am not able to do ).... which maybe it is this is the real problem of everything, to change the mass even to objects ..... like gate, spinner, ect ect

And I never said that the values in the .xml was useless, I just said that if you applied these values in real world, they are not correct. But FP is not realworld, so these values are correct but just for FP.

I know you didn't say it ..... but I, thought it unfortunately .... if they are not applicable.
so I think we could find other ways or values to use, don't you think? do you think it's possible for you?

 

[Paolo]

Yes and the answer is given at the end.

I do not understand the spoken in English, and the gentleman has a voice a little...mmm... I would not be like to say, in short I do not understand it......but I think he speaks of an illusion?

 

[Popotte]

He don't speak about illusion.


Left click on the icon and you'll have subtitles.

They are illusions:

 

[Paolo]

I meant that I wish I could be part of the solution but instead I just pointed out another problem. Alone I certainly can't do much as I'm also struggling with this not to mention I just arrived

in fact, since I am trying to improve physics in DK (mass and gravity for now) ..... "physics" a term that I would now classify as unsuitable ..... other problems arise ...... ( that it is better to speak in due time), in fact I stopped because I had problems with kickers, with gates, with plungers....gate have a hard time opening up, kickers,emkickers and plungers no longer have the strength they used to.....

so if you change mass and gravity, you have to intervene, even on other objects,and as I said above, you have to do specific calculations to configure ball and objects.

I don't know how you all have done up to now, I have always left the standard fp physics in my tables, because I never understood what to do in "xml" via bam ...., sometimes I asked @GeorgeH for help, but I believe that no matter how hard he may try to find a better configuration at that table he is working on, it cannot be optimal, than I believe.

so now it's all to see

 

[Popotte]

For me, and only for me, we have to find good values for mass and gravity (for balls). Is it OK for dynamic flippers? Yes.
So after, try to have good values for gate, kicker, ...
It's really a long work. It's why if ravarcade make .CreateAllExt for all, I'll create a test table in order to test all the parameters (hum, maybe...).

 

[GeorgeH]

so if you change mass and gravity, you have to intervene, even on other objects,and as I said above, you have to do specific calculations to configure ball and objects.

What sort of calculations are you using?

 

[Popotte]

I think you have to forget all kinds of calculations (physic calculations) but test a lot of values.

 

[GeorgeH]

I think you have to forget all kinds of calculations (physic calculations) but test a lot of values.

That is what I do. After doing that for several years, I developed an intuition for parameters that need changing. I am just curious as to what sort of calculations Paolo is performing.

 

[Paolo]

For me, and only for me, we have to find good values for mass and gravity (for balls). Is it OK for dynamic flippers? Yes.
So after, try to have good values for gate, kicker, ...
It's really a long work. It's why if ravarcade make .CreateAllExt for all, I'll create a test table in order to test all the parameters (hum, maybe...).

ok, it continue to be a mystery Create Ext for all, but I understand only for the lights....for the moment

bulb1Ext.Brightness =xxx
bulb1Ext.GlowRadius = xxx
bulb1Ext.GlowBrightness = xxx

ok, can I ask Rav, but please explain me a little more ... if I tell Rav, to create CreateExt for all, will he be able to understand why I ask?

What sort of calculations are you using?

no, JP, I am not able to do any kind of calculation, my concept was referred in abstract, in plural, not in singular referred to me .... I was saying that based on your answers "we"(reported, to all, but those who know how to do it)... have to do some calculations to set the other objects based on the mass of the ball, which in xml are wrong ..... right, or am I wrong to think so? you know very well that I am not able to do these things.

I think you have to forget all kinds of calculations (physic calculations) but test a lot of values.

I repeat and only my concept, a theory, I thought that it was necessary to do some mathematical or physical calculations ... or kind of the other world .... ok I realize that I was wrong to think in this way

 

[Paolo]

That is what I do. After doing that for several years, I developed an intuition for parameters that need changing. I am just curious as to what sort of calculations Paolo is performing.

but do you really think that i'm so good at calculations? I spent years learning how to make simple code to create a table .... that now you think I'm a super human computer?

but come on guys.....I opened this thread for "WE" try to find a solution or a way, or whatever you want to call it, making assumptions, theories, about the xml,and what now do I do the calculations?

but JP,or George read my introduction on the first page?

 

[Paolo]

ok, I want to clarify .....

1) I have never interacted with the "xml" file, so I don't know where to start, I have always leave the standard fp physics in my table,just you George at some other table of mine.
2) recently I started to understand how it worked, or better, how to configure the physics by means of xml......but only mass and gravity.....and I asked a lot of questions about it.
3) I realized that in order to have a higher speed in the gameplay in DK, i need to interacted in xml......
4) I asked my first questions....' <physics slope="6" fps="256" threaded="0"></physics>... JP he answered.
5) now it's the turn of mass and gravity.....
6) I made some assumptions, to try and if it was possible to configure the physics based on the real one of a pinball as in an EM
some answers on mass and gravity made me think that we need to do some calculations ... but not that I have to do them myself
7) I have seen some answers that talk about the mass ... as if it were compared to that of the earth, or at least to something real
eight) we got to the point of making some hypotheses of mass and gravity with certain values .... but then it turns out that we must also make changes to the objects that have different mass in the xml therefore wrong
9) I only ask theories and questions, I'm not a man of calculations or configurations ....
10) I know you JP are a good codeman, and you George are almost the best in physics or xml

11) now I ask ALL you, is it possible to create optimal physics that can be used in all tables? IS a dream of mine in technicolor, or is it possible?

EDIT
the number eight 8 gives me the smiley face

 

[Popotte]

ok, can I ask Rav, but please explain me a little more ... if I tell Rav, to create CreateExt for all, will he be able to understand why I ask?

I don't know if it would be .CreateAllExt, what I want is the possibility, in the script, to have (for example):
Bumper1.Impulse = "100"
LeftSlingshot.vectorramdomness = "5"
Spinner.angularDamp = "1.25"
...

I don't care about the name of the instruction to do that.

 

[Popotte]

...
11) now I ask ALL you, is it possible to create optimal physics that can be used in all tables? IS a dream of mine in technicolor, or is it possible?

EDIT
the number eight 8 gives me the smiley face

11) Truly, I don't think. But I think we can have a good template that will have to be changed a little bit depending on the tables.

An 8 and after ) give you the smiley, just write 8 ) because without space, it's give that 8)

 

[Paolo]

@GeorgeH

some questions .... you have been making "mods" for many years, in your tables you always change physics or xml configurations right? are you satisfied with the gameplay you ultimately have at that table?

in xml, you, configure everything?

did you ever know that in xml there are wrong values such as mass of objects?

have you ever noticed that when you do your xml configurations such as mass and gravity, some objects no longer work well?

do you think your knowledge in this matter can be of help here?

you know each line of the xml, and what it is, and what it refers to, and above all the values?

please answer all these questions of mine

 

[Paolo]

I don't know if ot would be .CreateAllExt, what I want is the possibility, in the script, to have (for example):
Bumper1.Impulse = "100"
LeftSlingshot.vectorramdomness = "5"
Spinner.angularDamp = "1.25"

ok....but JP, forgive my idiot question, these three objects are not already in xml, which can be configured as you think?

 

[AnonTet]

About 11) I would be glad if we could find a template that works everywhere with minimal changes to but what changes can be considered minimal?

I'd say kickers, plungers, spinners... Strength for example to accommodate for the new changes. If it involves materials that is just about the same as now... Right?

A bit of history curiosity; apart from tables that can use other types of ball like twilight zone, has the regular pinball ball been the same in size and weight over time? The purpose of this question is simple, if the answer is yes, the we already have a starting point. And a critical one since the ball is the sure thing all tables have in common :)

 

[Paolo]

11) Truly, I don't think. But I think we can have a good template that will have to be changed a little bit depending on the tables.

is this would be a big problem, I think .....but I'm just a thinker
because then it wouldn't be so different from what George does, that is to change the xml every time, I always think as a thinker ... I mean, a single model, isn't it possible?

that's why I make the comparison with the real one, if in all EM the physics is the same, because it is not possible for fp ..... 'ok now you will tell me that fp is fp the real and real ..... it's me I'm a complete idiot

ok, a good template, that's already something .... but why depending on the tables?

 

[Popotte]

I don't know for very old pinballs, but otherwise, main ball have the same size and weight (main ball because you can have small ball, ceramic ball, ...).

 

[Popotte]

ok, a good template, that's already something .... but why depending on the tables?

Because for some tables with "difficult" ramps, you need more speed (for example).
Some old tables need more elasticity for rubbers.
But it's just adaptations.
You know, even with a real pinball, if you change the sloope, you have big changes.
And the sloope is not the same for Em's, SS's or DMD's.

 

[Paolo]

JP,you have no answer to this question, I need to know to ask Rav .....

I don't know if it would be .CreateAllExt, what I want is the possibility, in the script, to have (for example):
Bumper1.Impulse = "100"
LeftSlingshot.vectorramdomness = "5"
Spinner.angularDamp = "1.25"

ok....but JP, forgive my idiot question, these three objects are not already in xml, which can be configured as you think?

 

[Paolo]

Extract from your .xml (but the others are more or less the same):

' <ball newtonDamping="0" mass="80" gravity="7100" damping="0.9"></ball>
' <autoplunger mass="20000.0" force="60000.0"></autoplunger>
' <diverter mass="10000.0" omega="33.0"></diverter>
' <gate mass="0.010" gravity="100" damping="0.25"></gate>
' <plunger mass="20000.0" force="30000.0"></plunger>
' <spindisk mass="10000.0" angularDamp="0.33" linearDamp="0.25"></spindisk>
' <spinner mass="60.0" gravity="100.0" angularDamp="0.25"...</spinner>
' <emkicker mass="10000.0" omega="40.0"></emkicker>
' <varitarget mass="500.0" damping="0.9" tension="3.0" return="15.0"></varitarget>
20 kg for an autoplunger... 0,01 g for a gate... 10 kg for a diverter...
As you can see, the knowledge of the meaning of the terms (gravity, mass) is of no use since the values are exotic.
The problem is to search good values (for playing) and not good values (from a physics point of view).
In fact, it would be a good thing to have .CreateAllExt for really all as we can built a test table with a lot of cheat keys (all the keyboard keys) in order to change in real time all parameters without having to exit the table, change manually the value, launch the table, ...

I didn't realize this was an xml that George uses .... interesting .... so it is as I suspected, this is the reason, and the why, I asked him my questions......I wait for the answers.....but it's not to blame you, George...no no, I want to make this clear, and just another way to learn more, to try to understand better, and what to do to improve.

so even if he configures the mass to 80, which is believed to be the right size .... but the problem is the other masses, are exotic ...all wrong .... here, is now yes, that I understood this term ...

and I understand even now the reason for "Create Ext for all" so that it can be inserted directly into the script, so that then using the your cheat keys, you do your test of the new values directly in the script, because xml does not allow you to do this. .... to simplify the work. .... great idea @Popotte ... this is a good reason to tell Rav .