BAM Physics/XML About physics ......For a better gameplay!

[GeorgeH]

ok when you described tables that had ball bounce all over was correct,.
the way you describe bad physics was correct (funny). The values were an example of a table that has the ball flying all over the place. (agreeing with you)
YOU were 100% correct. you said nothing wrong at all, I consider you a MENTOR

and no, i am for sure a beginner. using FP maybe 5 months, but I learn quick on and my math used to be very good, trying to be helpful and learn at the same time, and maybe I may find a different solution in the future.

Since you know something about math, maybe you could try to figure a way to change dynamic flippers so it uses a mathematical curve in the red section of the code below (that I think you have seen before). The red section just produces a linear curve. I don't know if it is possible but I would like a curve that has a higher omega in the middle of the flipper than at the tip or the base. The FP script will do simple math functions like add, subtract, multiply and divide (nothing else.)

omegaCorrectionR = MaxOmega - (RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint * ((MaxOmega - MinOmega)/1.2))
If RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint < 0.0 then RightFlipperExt.Omega = MaxOmega
If RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint > 1.2 then RightFlipperExt.Omega = MinOmega
If (RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint => 0.0) And (RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint =< 1.2) then
RightFlipperExt.Omega = omegaCorrectionR
End if

 

[Paolo]

I don't know if it is possible but I would like a curve that has a higher omega in the middle of the flipper than at the tip or the base.

BRAVO!!!!

This is what I wanted to do,increasing the speed of the swing ..... this is why you will see (or maybe you have noticed) that I have changed the flipper to DW, made it longer, to have this kind of control, to hit the absurd ramp and complete it ......

We want the same thing, but with two different methods ..... but which lead to the same path......it's amazing

If Rav,create a code so xBAM.SetSwingSpeedFlipper1, x, x, x I believe(maybe I Farnetic) that maybe it would be the same thing

 

[HZR]

Since you know something about math, maybe you could try to figure a way to change dynamic flippers so it uses a mathematical curve in the red section of the code below (that I think you have seen before). The red section just produces a linear curve. I don't know if it is possible but I would like a curve that has a higher omega in the middle of the flipper than at the tip or the base. The FP script will do simple math functions like add, subtract, multiply and divide (nothing else.)

omegaCorrectionR = MaxOmega - (RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint * ((MaxOmega - MinOmega)/1.2))
If RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint < 0.0 then RightFlipperExt.Omega = MaxOmega
If RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint > 1.2 then RightFlipperExt.Omega = MinOmega
If (RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint => 0.0) And (RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint =< 1.2) then
RightFlipperExt.Omega = omegaCorrectionR
End if

ok, first I only have toyed with values.
You said, FP will do simple math. How simple. If your trying to Pinpoint a better center point, extend your decimals. Can you add to the calculated value?
If the scripting forgiving, I do not know scripting.
Does FP consider the length of the flipper, assuming it does , 0.0 and 1.2 .
your center is .6,

If RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint < .5 and >.7 then RightFlipperExt.Omega = omegaCorrectionR+(ammount you want to increase)

can you have multiple values that produce a result?
if you set a constant does not use the curve?
can you check the value on the curve?

My guess (first time trying to do this)
If (RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint => 0.5) And (RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint =< .7) then
RightFlipperExt.Omega = omegaCorrectionR+(Your value)

 

[HZR]

it there a table that has basics with dynamic flippers and a ball. for testing.
also in BAM, where you go to dev mode there are flipper adjustments.
are all those values stored in the xml if you produce one?

 

[GeorgeH]

it there a table that has basics with dynamic flippers and a ball. for testing.

I don't think anyone ever made a demo table. However, Space Shuttle is a fairly simple table with dynamic flippers that you can get here:

Williams - SS - Recreation - BAM - FP - Space Shuttle (Williams, 1984)

Note: Click on the "Updates" tab to read the descriptions for versions 1.3 and 1.4 Note that the Special 2 key opens the menu. Space Shuttle (Williams, 1984) v1.2 Table Developers: Sepeteus, Tomasaco, Popotte, GeorgeH IPD No. 2260 "Space...

pinballnirvana.com

also in BAM, where you go to dev mode there are flipper adjustments.
are all those values stored in the xml if you produce one?

Dynamic flippers are done entirely in the script. The 2 omega values are changed here:

const MinOmega = 31 ' Omega at tip of flipper. Must be < MaxOmega. Default = 33
const MaxOmega = 47 ' Omega at base of flipper. Must be > MinOmega. Default = 50


Omega is the same thing as strength.

ok, first I only have toyed with values.
You said, FP will do simple math. How simple. If your trying to Pinpoint a better center point, extend your decimals. Can you add to the calculated value?

The value at the base of the flipper is 0.0 and and 1.2 at the tip. FP will do 4 function basic math. The center contact point would be 0.6. The problem is the current formula ramps up from the minimum omega to the maximum in a liner manner. We would like the omega at the base and at the tip to have lower values and the center be a bit higher in a curved fashion.

If the scripting forgiving, I do not know scripting.
Does FP consider the length of the flipper, assuming it does , 0.0 and 1.2 .
your center is .6,

The script for this is not too difficult but I can help in you need it. It is not too forgiving though.

If RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint < .5 and >.7 then RightFlipperExt.Omega = omegaCorrectionR+(ammount you want to increase)

can you have multiple values that produce a result?

You can assume that the ball will hit the flippers one at a time. There is a very remote possibility that 2 balls could hit a flipper at the same time during multiball but the chances aren't really worth considering.

if you set a constant does not use the curve?

We've never used a constant.

can you check the value on the curve?

There is a debug option in FP where some code can be added to the script and display the contact point value and other info when you play a game.

My guess (first time trying to do this)
If (RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint => 0.5) And (RightFlipperExt.ContactPoint =< .7) then
RightFlipperExt.Omega = omegaCorrectionR+(Your value)

This looks like it would produce a higher value in the center with a sharp drop on either side of 0.6. The omega needs to ramp down or become progressively lower from the center to the flipper tip and the base.

 

[HZR]

I thought I was asked if maybe I could figure this out.
Maybe each possible contact ti the flipper needs addressed in the script.
I'll have to ask a math professor. But I'm sure there is a formula that will work, HOWEVER will fp handle the formula.

 

[HZR]

I thought I was asked if maybe I could figure this out.
Maybe each possible contact ti the flipper needs addressed in the script.
I'll have to ask a math professor. But I'm sure there is a formula that will work, HOWEVER will fp handle the formula.

Seems like its linear or nothing.

Even had 3 sections of code for each flipper a section from 0.0 to .5 and a second from .5 to .7 and a third from .7 to 1.2 it would still be linear.
To get a curve there would have to factor speed of the ball mass and gravity and also the damping.
So you would need those values in your formula for the flipper .

 

[JLou5641]

@hellrzr2k1 , I invite you to read the BAM Rotation Charts topic:

BAM rotationSpeedChart

I noticed your latest rotation speed chart goes up to 160% but this one does not appear to go that high. Is the 160% a mistake? If not a mistake, it seems odd it would go that high. View attachment 21782 is my video?I assume so. it seems to me that you say that, you have noticed something...

pinballnirvana.com

 

[HZR]

My sister in law is a math professor, she hasnt saw the code yet, but from a brief chat she said it may not be possible because your dealing with a single flat surface. We will get more in depth about this when she isnt working.
If its possible she will figure it out. Ill keep you guys informed.

 

[HZR]

Hello everyone......

Okay, this is probably a topic discussed many and many times, but sometimes things happen that a person, who cannot explain certain situations.
Now, I don't know if the fact that I have not always installed every release of Bam, but only replaced, from version 290, up to the latest current version, which I installed this time.

I state that I am not a great "physics tweaks man", like @GeorgeH or someone else.I almost always left the standard FP physics in my tables, that is, not using other types of "xml" but only making my changes to the objects in the fp editor, so never in "physics tweaks" in menu bam, and only for a few years I use "dynamic flippers", then only after having tried everything, I create my own "xml"

So I ask those who somehow have had a feeling that something is different in the physics of FP ...I mean, it seems that all of a sudden, the FP gameplay, has become slow, I don't know if I can be clear, that is to have a faster gameplay I would have to make changes that I never needed to do .... maybe a another user who recently discussed this with me ... can make a speech ....

The crux of the matter is whether by chance installing the last version of Bam, the 329 .... I had this feeling of slowness,underline "feeling" because I don't know how to define this situation.

Resources by Paolo

pinballnirvana.com

I noticed some 2.7 tables not right and went back to 2.6
same physic mass gravity and damping if I remember correctly

 

[Paolo]

I noticed some 2.7 tables not right and went back to 2.6
same physic mass gravity and damping if I remember correctly

these are physics created by "slamtilt", I don't know why from 2.7 to 2.6 .... I think other things change too.

 

[HZR]

Ok I started thinking about this slightly curved flipper...
You would most likely need sin or tan available and fp only does simple.math..

So is there a way to model the flipper to have a slight curve and use a overlay onto so it appears to the player as a normal flipper? The actual flipper and a overlay where the overlay isnt factored into any of the physics? The back contact would be slightly lower than the overlay but maybe mask that with a particle or animation or neon glow or something?

 

[TerryRed]

I think this was the idea behind what Zed physics was doing.

 

[JLou5641]

no you can't do that with fpm editor
.. Even if we can do it, after, Dynamic Flipper will not work anymore, bam flipper tweak too, rotation charts to etc etc... This i why I made a news post for Ravarcade with 1 question in Request section. So for now, it's not a good solution.
As I ask to Ravarcade, the best way could be the possibility to make a trapzeoidal hitbox for flipper.

BAM - Prehit Function for Rectangular Flipper HitBox

Hi @ravarcade, With Fpm editor, we can change hitbox shape for flipper. From issue calculation with circle and straigth line, I decided to use a rectangulare hitbox like this : It work very well, with that you have a constant aiming and not eratic trajectory anymore... But it not working...

pinballnirvana.com

 

[JLou5641]

Also, we work on a New Dynamic Flipper V2 that adding hit trajectory correction, and that use Rotation Charts. This is a big step up.
For Erratic and trajectory Erro, like we said with @ravarcade , it's an engine calculation issue that could not be resolved without the sourcecode. Prehit Function tries to override this, but it's not perfect.. More better... but not perfect.
This is why I ask him if it's possible to make rectangulare hitbox working with Prehit function.

 

[HZR]

Hello everyone......

Okay, this is probably a topic discussed many and many times, but sometimes things happen that a person, who cannot explain certain situations.
Now, I don't know if the fact that I have not always installed every release of Bam, but only replaced, from version 290, up to the latest current version, which I installed this time.

I state that I am not a great "physics tweaks man", like @GeorgeH or someone else.I almost always left the standard FP physics in my tables, that is, not using other types of "xml" but only making my changes to the objects in the fp editor, so never in "physics tweaks" in menu bam, and only for a few years I use "dynamic flippers", then only after having tried everything, I create my own "xml"

So I ask those who somehow have had a feeling that something is different in the physics of FP ...I mean, it seems that all of a sudden, the FP gameplay, has become slow, I don't know if I can be clear, that is to have a faster gameplay I would have to make changes that I never needed to do .... maybe a another user who recently discussed this with me ... can make a speech ....

The crux of the matter is whether by chance installing the last version of Bam, the 329 .... I had this feeling of slowness,underline "feeling" because I don't know how to define this situation.

Resources by Paolo

pinballnirvana.com

I know this is going back, but recent conversation with terry on silent hill and 32bit app and the hacked fp.exe
I flagged a version of fp to act as a 64bit application withought changing any accept a flag

FP_4gbVMpatched.exe

drive.google.com

The OLD hacked exe would not load the twilightzone 1.03 update, (the version with the menu for slope, flippers, etc)
my version loads and plays it.
George was saying its not good becaue it can cause issues depending on hardware configs ext on different systems.
Im running win10 x64, 16gig ram and a 8gb nvidia 1070 sc black.

Now I didnt notice , but i forgot to go back to the unmodified fp.exe and last night I decided to play slams elm street and halloween (my 2 favs) and The played smoother, then I realized I was still using my modded exe.

Then I remembered this post and tried the 2.7 versions vs 2.6, I had prefered 2.6 physics.. I noticed that with the modded exe the 2.7 tables played awesome. maybe its me playing fp more and more , but I quite certain the tables play a small amount smoother, and they seem a little bit faster for me,

Since you stated you noticed something different for you, can you try out the modded exe and see if you notice a difference? maybe its just me....

 

[JLou5641]

I'm curious to test it on my pincab because FP work baddly with BG and Pinup... but i can't for some times..

 

[HZR]

I'm curious to test it on my pincab because FP work baddly with BG and Pinup... but i can't for some times..

what are your specs.
i run smooth with a lenovo tiny m93p
i5 dual core, 4gb ram and cpu/gpu intel hd 4600
i managed to get it looking ok.
onboard gpu? or separate?
I had to tweak the HD 4600 with the app.
i can send snap shots. and try and help.

you prob need to be with 64bit OS also.

my video card had some settings to compress graphics it had to do with MSAA and the option to do a CONSERVING Msaa...
also run tables at 1200x720, graphics max memory I set at 2(half way)

I HAVE NOT tried this on my low end system yet. I will when I work on it this weekend.

 

[JLou5641]

nope thanj you. it's a FP problem with 4k and pinevent and pinup on multiscreen... not an hardware problem.

 

[HZR]

nope thanj you. it's a FP problem with 4k and pinevent and pinup on multiscreen... not an hardware problem.

The old hack I noticed is slightly larger than the original exe so other things were added and changed.
My mod is only a flag set to allow 64 bit memory use.
Hope it solves your issue, but not so sure it will help. I only noticed the tables played a TINY bit faster and smoother.
and I could run twilight zone 1,03 which crashed with the old hacked exe (the one that removes future pinball logo when loading a table)

 

[GeorgeH]

I know this is going back, but recent conversation with terry on silent hill and 32bit app and the hacked fp.exe
I flagged a version of fp to act as a 64bit application withought changing any accept a flag

FP_4gbVMpatched.exe

drive.google.com

The OLD hacked exe would not load the twilightzone 1.03 update, (the version with the menu for slope, flippers, etc)
my version loads and plays it.
George was saying its not good becaue it can cause issues depending on hardware configs ext on different systems.
Im running win10 x64, 16gig ram and a 8gb nvidia 1070 sc black.

Now I didnt notice , but i forgot to go back to the unmodified fp.exe and last night I decided to play slams elm street and halloween (my 2 favs) and The played smoother, then I realized I was still using my modded exe.

Then I remembered this post and tried the 2.7 versions vs 2.6, I had prefered 2.6 physics.. I noticed that with the modded exe the 2.7 tables played awesome. maybe its me playing fp more and more , but I quite certain the tables play a small amount smoother, and they seem a little bit faster for me,

Since you stated you noticed something different for you, can you try out the modded exe and see if you notice a difference? maybe its just me....

When you say the "old hacked", do you mean the old Zed version? I used the old Zed version for a long time until TerryRed noticed that the lighting on the Zed version was somehow modified so it did not look as good as other versions. So I ended up using the 2.7 version, mainly to remove the splash FP logo that displays during the table load. I use a "default.xml" so it doesn't matter which executable I use as far as physics go.

 

[AnonTet]

You can remove the logo in BAM options, no need for a specific .exe file.

 

[HZR]

When you say the "old hacked", do you mean the old Zed version? I used the old Zed version for a long time until TerryRed noticed that the lighting on the Zed version was somehow modified so it did not look as good as other versions. So I ended up using the 2.7 version, mainly to remove the splash FP logo that displays during the table load. I use a "default.xml" so it doesn't matter which executable I use as far as physics go.

1.9.2013.25 the loading screen isnt branded with a huge future pinball. and either you need or dont need the zed zip files
with the table. I liked the clean loading screen, doesnt matter to me if zips are with table or not.
I think its the zed one.. i dont use it though.. because twilight zone 1,03 crashes
it seems tables play a tiny bit smoother and faster with my modded exe compared to the original exe.
hope that clears things up.
and the zed version crashed with tz 1.03 for me anwyays

 

[HZR]

You can remove the logo in BAM options, no need for a specific .exe file.

I meant the loading screen

 

[HZR]

When you say the "old hacked", do you mean the old Zed version? I used the old Zed version for a long time until TerryRed noticed that the lighting on the Zed version was somehow modified so it did not look as good as other versions. So I ended up using the 2.7 version, mainly to remove the splash FP logo that displays during the table load. I use a "default.xml" so it doesn't matter which executable I use as far as physics go.

where can I get the 2.7 version that has splash removed.