BAM Physics/XML About physics ......For a better gameplay!

[Paolo]

Act One

Ok.....Bene! since when, I have undertaken to the travel inside the world of fp / bam physics, everything is clear to me, and I can say that for years before coming BAM, in a fp pinball, "we" played soccer with the ball, not with a pinball.

Future Pinball, from his latest update, which took place (I believe) in 2010, was no longer updated, by the Creator, and I believe it was also for reasons of "physical engine", maybe someone will hate me for this reason that I'm saying, but the physical engine of FP, is not one of the best, having a not-positive impact on physics .... therefore of consequence in the pinball gameplay (tables),in my opinion.

The physics ....perhaps someone find bored this topic at this point , but not for me, and I hope also to you all, also because there is always something to learn and to be improved.... this is a topic discussed, and re-discussed many times, even on another site in primis (first), on Gopinball/PinSim DB, by many guys, and authors of tables, including from the great guy @smoke , but of him we'll talk about than later.

Many, maybe they will wonder, but what is the physics? unfortunately I have not had an advanced instruction , unfortunately I had to stop at the middle school, so math is not my "forte".... is not my strong suit (in English).So I can't explain in technical terms what is the physics of a table,but what I know instead is that affects the gameplay of a table.

The physics of a table, in this case of future pinball, is determined by many factors, for example of how to build a table, and in the way the objects that make up the table is positioned, which can usually be configured in the FP Editor, but it's not all ..... in the next act, we'll talk about XML.

Greetings to all

 

[Paolo]

Act Two

Good! before talking about XML, I would like to make a short engraved,and speak before the "DF = Dynamic Flipper",and other things, for a better understanding, I think that talking now about XML, is not productive.

We always talk about physics, and not of gameplay, I firmly believe that: the gameplay of a table is more important than physics in itself, the physics is just a means, to reach an optimal gameplay,and to achieve this goal of optimal gameplay, and here "the keystone" is: to have and find a balance in the forces that make up a table ..... and Yes, you got it right, balance is "the keystone"

The physics of a table is can be configured, despite the physical engine of FP, is not one of the best, with BAM, in recent years we have had improvements and functionality in terms of physics, including the "Dynamic Flipper",designed by some guys, I can't find in the site where it was conceived, since it is now infected with spam, the "Bam Corner" section arrived at more than three thousand spam pages, find to be a specific thread is almost impossible.

The DF, is a function(a mathematical code created by Rav)that allows Bam, and improves the gameplay of a table, we talk about a system that regulates the strokes with the fins, before without this function, you hit the ball from a precise point of the fin, and the ball went somewhere else, now with DF we have more precision in the shots, especially if you try to cradle the ball.But even in this it function you have to find a configuration, a balance to work at its best.

Now as I said above, for having a physics that makes your table with optimal gameplay, means finding a balance between the forces that make up the table ... it is not enough just to have a DF, or an XML, which moreover, they may not be configured in a balanced way, with the other forces that make up the table.....but in this passage I will not talk about the objects, or their hypothetical configuration, but instead of forces, which influence the physics, in other words the gameplay of the table.

In my opinion and as far as I can know, not being a graduate in mathematics, I know how to build a table, and I have some experience, and therefore I can say and what are some of these force:

1) Slope
2) Slingshot
3) Left/Right-Flippers
3) Mass,which is the weight of the ball
4) Gravity
5) NewtonDamping/damping
5) rotationSpeedChart=/releaseOmega=/omega=
6) MinOmega/MaxOmega
7) Bounce Control
8) xBAM.BallSpeedLimit
9) PlayfieldMat

In the next acts, I will try to explain the balance between these forces, which some are found in the editor of Fp, others in the script, others in Xml.

But first I want to talk about smoke, and its intuitions and proposals, about the physics.So.... in my opinion, although there was not yet the DF function,(I belive) created a very good physics for his tables, but the thing that surprised me is that he used it equally on all his tables.

Greetings to all

 

[AnonTet]

I don't want to burst your bubble wild but the key word is "his" (tables). I personally have yet to find a copy&paste solution of physics to apply on all tables.

 

[Paolo]

I don't want to burst your bubble wild

Don't worry about burst my bubble, it's been yet burst a long time ago. But I invite you to browse or navigate inside of
bubble.

but the key word is "his" (tables).

The key word is not what you say,"his" (tables).....I do not know what you mean,but if you're referring to good gameplay at a table, the key word is balance......and it's my keystone.

I personally have yet to find a copy&paste solution of physics to apply on all tables.

If you have read my two acts correctly, you will find the answer.....I'll give you some explanation now.
if we can .... I speak in the plural to involve other people, as far as I'm concerned, I'm almost there ..... I was saying if we can find a balance in physics between the forces of a table(see above), we will get an optimal gameplay, from adapt in each table .... you say that it is a bubble, instead I say, rather a philosophy, but only a few changes were enough for me, and I had confirmation from Nitro Here , and even in my last table, you probably haven't tried it, or maybe yes, and maybe you're one of those who want super speed in gameplay of table, so you haven't commented, and found it slow. .... I'm just speculating.

The mistake you all make is that, if you try to want fast gameplay at all costs, you are forced to create an aggressive physics, wrong for me, with an out of the ordinary mass and gravity ..... that negatively affect on the other forces and objects on the table ..... for what then? for to want to see a ball that goes down faster in the fins ?? is that what you all mean when I see "seems slow to me" comments?

that's why I say that my keystone is balance ..... if you balance physics, we will get optimal gameplay ..... neither too fast nor too slow, but a pleasant gameplay, which you play and not you will get that the ball goes in the hole (in drain) or in the lineout, at the speed of light, because you have a too strong omega, or a slope to the stars, that when you hit a peg, and you see yourself sending the ball who knows where,for to too much speed of impact ....... but there is still more you know, but I'll stop here...... I don't know if I was clear enough

 

[Gimli]

It is nice to have a balance between copy and paste enhancements and individual freedom to custom tweak just about anything in the xml

 

[Paolo]

It is nice to have a balance between copy and paste enhancements and individual freedom to custom tweak just about anything in the xml

I'm sorry, Bob, I didn't understand if it's a statement, or your opinion, or a question,I ask kindly

 

[Gimli]

I'm sorry, Bob, I didn't understand if it's a statement, or your opinion, or a question,I ask kindly

Its just a statement

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Its just a statement

Okay okay-- Bob's ingrown tonenail has been acting the GOAT, lately (Tintin joke).

Let's all get back to... eh, what the hell were we all doing in the first place, anyway? :D

 

[Paolo]

It is nice to have a balance between copy and paste enhancements and individual freedom to custom tweak just about anything in the xml

Its just a statement

Ok,thanks for your reply,but let me say this, without you thinking I'm angry or anything like that....we are in a democracy, right!!!

I don't know what it was the reason is why you commented with your statement, maybe I said something wrong or invasive, in my answer to "anontet" about the "copy and paste", or maybe you are to agree with me, when I say that "we" have to find a balance in physics.....but for copy and paste, as "anontet" he means it,maybe it's a my technicolor dream,or a bubble? but it would take a man who knows mathematics like you, to make it happen.

Maybe youthink is not possible,because I have not seen you very involved, in discussions or threads concerning physics or for DF, here in PN, although you are one of the guys who conceived this, this is what makes me think and say that despite "who" (I put it in quotes to say in general) possesses great power, like your "your math" that could accomplish a miracle in physics,and beyond, and God knows, on what other things, think only it's nice to have the freedom individual to change pretty much everything in xml ....... this is really cool!!!

I don't understand Isaac's ironic joke very well, but maybe that "ingrown toenail" is holding you back? it's just a my hypothesis.

 

[Gimli]

Ok,thanks for your reply,but let me say this, without you thinking I'm angry or anything like that....we are in a democracy, right!!!

I don't know what it was the reason is why you commented with your statement, maybe I said something wrong or invasive, in my answer to "anontet" about the "copy and paste", or maybe you are to agree with me, when I say that "we" have to find a balance in physics.....but for copy and paste, as "anontet" he means it,maybe it's a my technicolor dream,or a bubble? but it would take a man who knows mathematics like you, to make it happen.

Maybe youthink is not possible,because I have not seen you very involved, in discussions or threads concerning physics or for DF, here in PN, although you are one of the guys who conceived this, this is what makes me think and say that despite "who" (I put it in quotes to say in general) possesses great power, like your "your math" that could accomplish a miracle in physics,and beyond, and God knows, on what other things, think only it's nice to have the freedom individual to change pretty much everything in xml ....... this is really cool!!!

I don't understand Isaac's ironic joke very well, but maybe that "ingrown toenail" is holding you back? it's just a my hypothesis.

Ya Ike is speaking in riddles ?

You are correct I haven’t had time to invest in refining physics but I am happy that you , George , Anontet, Shiva , Louis and others are.

I actually am happy with current state of things . George , Yourself, TerryRed , Shiva , Slam, Nitronimbus , Smoke etc… are all putting out very playable tables and I think FP is very respectable now.

I was just echoing what you said above that a balanced approach is always the way.

All my BAM energies in the past year have been with non pinball flipperless stuff so pinball physics for me right now is an afterthought.

I am curious to see how Shivas “engine” evolves

 

[Paolo]

I was just echoing what you said above that a balanced approach is always the way.

yes, i believe so too.

You are correct I haven’t had time to invest in refining physics but I am happy that you , George , Anontet, Shiva , Louis and others are.

no yet!! I'm not at your level,
you all have that little bit more than me, I only have the experience and a seventh sense,for the construction, and the intelligence to not set limits, the miniplayfield-function we conceived it in this way.

yes, ok, but you could also give some advice ... an opinion, something to discuss, instead you just stand alone,the DF, it's your idea.

I hope this makes you think a little bit,of an your involvement, it is not the "time", to investigate that you lack.

 

[GeorgeH]

The physics of a table is can be configured, despite the physical engine of FP, is not one of the best, with BAM, in recent years we have had improvements and functionality in terms of physics, including the "Dynamic Flipper",designed by some guys, I can't find in the site where it was conceived, since it is now infected with spam, the "Bam Corner" section arrived at more than three thousand spam pages, find to be a specific thread is almost impossible.

Rav developed the change at Gimli's request that allows BAM to anticipate where the ball will hit the flippers. Rav also developed the bounce control code in the script we use. Gimli and I developed the code for the flipper omega.

 

[Paolo]

Post, moved up BAM rotationSpeedChart because I was wrong to enter here.

 

[GeorgeH]

I have only used the flipper rotationSpeedChart. I have never used this dynamic flipper code so I can't help.

 

[Paolo]

@GeorgeH
Please,you can move posts 113 and 114, to the other thread,BAM rotationSpeedChart because I was wrong to insert it here

EDIT:
I moved it myself, if you want to move yours, G

 

[Paolo]

Rav developed the change at Gimli's request that allows BAM to anticipate where the ball will hit the flippers. Rav also developed the bounce control code in the script we use. Gimli and I developed the code for the flipper omega.

but I already knew it, I was on the bench in that period, what I'd like to know is, if during the swing, based on where the ball hits the third part of the fin, see this trivial example below..... I talk about it here post 119,It is if the code distributes the omega in percentage, automatically.


But for now I have not received an answer ..... perhaps because it is a twisted example designed by my crazy mind

 

[GeorgeH]

@GeorgeH
Please,you can move posts 113 and 114, to the other thread,BAM rotationSpeedChart because I was wrong to insert it here

EDIT:
I moved it myself, if you want to move yours, G

I don't seem to be able to move single posts. I could move the whole thread but don't want to do that.

 

[GeorgeH]

but I already knew it, I was on the bench in that period, what I'd like to know is, if during the swing, based on where the ball hits the third part of the fin, see this trivial example below..... I talk about it here post 119,It is if the code distributes the omega in percentage, automatically.

View attachment 21410
But for now I have not received an answer ..... perhaps because it is a twisted example designed by my crazy mind

I am not sure but to the best of my knowledge, I don't think swing is used in the calculation. Probably some to ask Rav.

 

[Paolo]

I could move the whole thread but don't want to do that.

and you must not do it, I did not say the whole thread, but only the post, in this case yours, because mine did me

I don't think swing is used in the calculation. Probably some to ask Rav.

I will do it.

 

[HZR]

Don't worry about burst my bubble, it's been yet burst a long time ago. But I invite you to browse or navigate inside of
bubble.

The key word is not what you say,"his" (tables).....I do not know what you mean,but if you're referring to good gameplay at a table, the key word is balance......and it's my keystone.

If you have read my two acts correctly, you will find the answer.....I'll give you some explanation now.
if we can .... I speak in the plural to involve other people, as far as I'm concerned, I'm almost there ..... I was saying if we can find a balance in physics between the forces of a table(see above), we will get an optimal gameplay, from adapt in each table .... you say that it is a bubble, instead I say, rather a philosophy, but only a few changes were enough for me, and I had confirmation from Nitro Here , and even in my last table, you probably haven't tried it, or maybe yes, and maybe you're one of those who want super speed in gameplay of table, so you haven't commented, and found it slow. .... I'm just speculating.

The mistake you all make is that, if you try to want fast gameplay at all costs, you are forced to create an aggressive physics, wrong for me, with an out of the ordinary mass and gravity ..... that negatively affect on the other forces and objects on the table ..... for what then? for to want to see a ball that goes down faster in the fins ?? is that what you all mean when I see "seems slow to me" comments?

that's why I say that my keystone is balance ..... if you balance physics, we will get optimal gameplay ..... neither too fast nor too slow, but a pleasant gameplay, which you play and not you will get that the ball goes in the hole (in drain) or in the lineout, at the speed of light, because you have a too strong omega, or a slope to the stars, that when you hit a peg, and you see yourself sending the ball who knows where,for to too much speed of impact ....... but there is still more you know, but I'll stop here...... I don't know if I was clear enough

sorry this made me laugh... slope 10 mass 90 gravity 7200 damping .65
maybe it was how he worded it, i prefer a BIT faster table myself,

 

[Paolo]

sorry this made me laugh....slope 10 mass 90 gravity 7200......i prefer a BIT faster table myself

What makes you laugh?

with "slope 10 mass 90 gravity 7200"....... ,if you prefer to play ping pong as a "forrest gump" against a wall, as you do, you are free to do whatever you want ....but with that setup, for me,you it's not playing pinball, but pin pong.
a tip, to stay on the subject ..... also insert the omega 100, and you will have a super fast game, if you are still not satisfied with that configuration....you will defeat"forrest gump" for sure.

anyway my best wishes

 

[HZR]

What makes you laugh?

with "slope 10 mass 90 gravity 7200"....... ,if you prefer to play ping pong as a "forrest gump" against a wall, as you do, you are free to do whatever you want ....but with that setup, for me,you it's not playing pinball, but pin pong.
a tip, to stay on the subject ..... also insert the omega 100, and you will have a super fast game, if you are still not satisfied with that configuration....you will defeat"forrest gump" for sure.

anyway my best wishes

thats what I meant. your definition of a fast playing table made me laugh, you described it well. (that was me agreeing)

 

[Paolo]

thats what I meant. your definition of a fast playing table made me laugh, you described it well. (that was me agreeing)

ok, but it's still not clear to me ..... please help me understand what you want to tell me, you say that you agree with me when I say not to exaggerate with the main values that affect a lot on the gameplay of a table,right?

and you laugh when you see these values on a table "slope 10 mass 90 gravity 7200",right!!?
did I get it right?

if so, you could have expressed yourself better don't you think? I misunderstood ... that you laugh when reading my text quoted by you
you put those values that, and then write this:

maybe it was how he worded it, i prefer a BIT faster table myself,

maybe it was how he worded it...who?
i prefer a BIT faster table myself.......what is this bit faster?

question: where did you see these values?

 

[HZR]

ok when you described tables that had ball bounce all over was correct,.
the way you describe bad physics was correct (funny). The values were an example of a table that has the ball flying all over the place. (agreeing with you)
YOU were 100% correct. you said nothing wrong at all, I consider you a MENTOR

and no, i am for sure a beginner. using FP maybe 5 months, but I learn quick on and my math used to be very good, trying to be helpful and learn at the same time, and maybe I may find a different solution in the future.

 

[Paolo]

Many thanks,@hellrzr2k1
I'm glad you find this interesting theory of mine, or rather what I think about physics ..... I don't have good math, but I have good intelligence, for to try to understand and improve the gameplay of a table , I invite you to continue this journey, let's learn together .... share your thoughts or advice .... that maybe we can find a different solution in the future......if you need help with some tables, feel free to ask, no problem ....

in the next acts I will try to explain the equilibrium for optimal physics